Open source Generally?

General discussion about your experience with the game.
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ahofman
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Open source Generally?

Post by ahofman »

Hi all,

Long time Generally player, first time poster.

I'm sure this question has been asked before but I couldn't find any reference to this subject by searching the forums, probably because the terms "source" and "code" are ignored in search for some reason. So, here I go.

First of all it's absolutely great that Generally is free to play. However, I can't help but wonder why it isn't open source with an LGPL license. Clearly the biggest disadvantage of the freeware model that Generally currently adopts is that only a handful of people can add features and fix bugs, and as a result development is painfully slow.

Imagine if Generally had been open-sourced in 2002. Tens or even hundreds of software developers could have been free to add features - networked multiplayer, anyone? It could have been a very different game today.

The real question here is, if you have a software product that you give away for free and don't intend to make any money off it, what reason could you have to not give away the source code under an LGPL license?

I look forward to some discussion on the matter :)
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Lukeno94
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Re: Open source Generally?

Post by Lukeno94 »

This question has been asked many times - the original makers of the game did not and still do not want this, so I don't see it happening.
ahofman
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Re: Open source Generally?

Post by ahofman »

I suspected this would have been a popular question - I'd suggest adding this to the FAQ.

Of course it's completely up to the games creators as to what they do with the source, although it's a shame their decision is to the detriment of the GR community.

I'm afraid I still don't understand WHY they don't want to release the source?

There are very clear benefits to free open source development, as I've outlined above. I don't see any practical reason why the games creators don't want to release it.
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Trigger Happy
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Re: Open source Generally?

Post by Trigger Happy »

They see as benefit, that thanks to this limited development team they have everything under control / in hands of few persons they really 100% trust. And also it keeps GR to be one universal game, not multiple versions incompatible to each other. And maybe some more reasons, which James can add if he'll wish. So yes, open-source is model with many benefits, but Räbinäs simply wish something completely different and we cannot change anything on that. :shrug:
darkhog
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I wonder if Generally will get opensource

Post by darkhog »

Imagine possibilities of this. If it get open sourced this'll mean faster development depending of number of volunteers and if you want something that isn't there, such as removing 30 vertex limit per car model (though IDK if it's limit of generally itself or Juan's car tool). How do you feel about it?
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Trigger Happy
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Re: Open source Generally?

Post by Trigger Happy »

Merged with topic of same theme.
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Lukeno94
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Re: Open source Generally?

Post by Lukeno94 »

It's a limit of GeneRally AND the car tool, and although I have lobbied for a while about the raising of the vertex and poly limits, I am well aware that we would also immediately need a new car editor. ;)
ahofman
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Re: Open source Generally?

Post by ahofman »

I completely understand the desire to retain control over GR's development - it's your baby, after all. The game has a "core spirit" that makes it so popular, and it's crucially important to maintain this.

However, I believe the project owners aren't giving due consideration to the fact that they can have complete control over the direction of GR's development, even if it's open sourced.

Open source development doesn't simply mean that anyone can arbitrarily change the project - far from it. It usually means anyone can submit a patch. It's still up to a core team of project owners to review and decide whether to accept or reject a proposed feature or bug fix. This allows many developers to fix bugs or add features, and allows the small core team to decide on the direction of the project.

GR doesn't even have to go fully open source to benefit. What if GR development required registration? For example, put the source on github and allow access only to selected developers. Open up development to more developers if the model works.

In summary, I believe there are ways for the development of GR, and the community in general, to benefit greatly from a more open model.

Please consider it :)
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Lukeno94
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Re: Open source Generally?

Post by Lukeno94 »

You're proposing things that have been proposed many times over the last 7-8 years. ;)
ahofman
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Re: Open source Generally?

Post by ahofman »

Okay, is there another thread where this issue has been discussed to its conclusion?

I can't find anything like that because, as I've mentioned, the forum won't allow me to search for the term "source".

If there exists such a thread, I'll read it!
If not, then we should have the discussion!

I'll disclose my agenda here - I absolutely love GeneRally and I want to contribute. I'm a software engineer by trade with 5 years experience in the console gaming industry (LinkedIn), so the engineering side of things is where I can contribute the most. I'd love to see the GR community continue to grow and flourish.

Anyhow, let's talk about it!
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TuomoH
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Re: Open source Generally?

Post by TuomoH »

You can talk as much as you want but it's the developers' wish to keep it as it is. ;) The issue has been discussed to death at RSC where GR had its home before, too bad RSC died and all of that discussion disappeared with that.
Sunoco
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Is GeneRally ever going to be open source?

Post by Sunoco »

I ask because I really want to help work on it, as I do have programming experience, and that's the only way I can see myself getting to help.
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James
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Re: Is GeneRally ever going to be open source?

Post by James »

Not for the foreseeable future, no.
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Lukeno94
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Re: Is GeneRally ever going to be open source?

Post by Lukeno94 »

This had been discussed numerous times, and the Rabinas have always taken the position that they only want a select few to work on their game. :)
Sunoco
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Re: Open source Generally?

Post by Sunoco »

Yeah, sorry for the other thread. I should have looked at this.

If I'm being honest, this is really quite disappointing. If it's going to be kept closed source, then there ought to be a reason for it. Making an updated version and selling it or something, I can see. I would pay for it. For it to remain free, but also closed source after this long is... not the best move in my opinion. Yes, I realize this isn't going to happen. I'm just expressing my disappointment and my disagreement.

Forking, different versions everywhere, etc. etc. rarely happens to real open source projects, especially games. Those kinds of problems are just really rare.

ALSO, if that really was such a problem, perhaps a license like the one Simple Machines used for older version of their forum software would make sense? The source code was available, and modifiable, and bugs and fixes could be submitted, but redistribution and forking was not allowed. That would be a workable system I think.

Of course I just really badly want to work on the game, hence my disappointment and part of my motive for wanting it open source. :vsad:
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James
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Re: Open source Generally?

Post by James »

Sunoco wrote:If it's going to be kept closed source, then there ought to be a reason for it.
There is: ongoing development. Markku and I are working almost daily on GR. Releasing the source to an abandoned/superseded project is one thing, but it's not often that a closed-source application is made open-source during active development.

Aside from the huge amount of clean-up and documentation needed to make open-sourcing GR viable, it's expressly against the wishes of Hannu, Jukka, Markku and myself. With the huge amount of code now in GR that is written by Markku and myself, even if Hannu and Jukka wanted to open-source GR (they don't, but just postulating) it couldn't be released in its current state without Markku and I consenting to it, too. GR was/is very much like a child to Hannu and Jukka, and it was a big thing for them to allow Markku and I to take over the development of their game. Now, though, it's something that all four of us are very closely attached to (Hannu and Jukka to the pre-1.10 code, and Markku and I to the recent stuff).

Markku and I still have big plans for GR, and many things are happening behind the scenes (look out for some more information around the middle of the year), so GR is far from dead.
Sunoco
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Re: Open source Generally?

Post by Sunoco »

Okay, well good. I do hope that ONE DAY it is open source, as I desperately want to work on it and have for a long, long time.

Merged double reply from Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:05 pm:

Okay, well good. I do hope that ONE DAY it is open source, as I desperately want to work on it and have for a long, long time.
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