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 GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched 
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Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:08 pm
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
Trigger Happy wrote:
bduddy wrote:
Let's be honest, how many people outside of this community are going to pay £8, or really any amount of money, for a game like GR2?
Some yes, considering one James' side note in this thread earlier about comparison of community/native KS support gained in a moment.

Btw I'd not overestimate it, but also better timing may help a little, June/July aren't months, when interest about gaming is on peak.

From posts above I can understand that it was supposed to look somewhat differently than happened. Frankly to say, in the beginning of the campaign I wasn't very optimistic about its success, but now a month later I'm pretty sure, that if they'll try again (with better timing, improved demo and with updating/PR pace like intended), this goal is very possible.


Totally agree here. Considering I saw very little PR for the KS campaign other than the odd tweet and retweet I was pretty impressed with the final total. Better PR, timing, updates etc could see the goal met.


Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:10 am
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
bduddy wrote:
Let's be honest, how many people outside of this community are going to pay £8, or really any amount of money, for a game like GR2? Without a free demo, that number will be almost zero. With a demo, it at least has a chance of being significant, assuming the demo is good (better than it is now...)
Well, I shared the kickstarter campiagn info with 5 or 6 friends who never ever heard before about Generally and they went straight to pay that 8€just because I suggested them it really worth the effort. So, if people that doesn´t even know the game pays, why the community members should not???

Glen wrote:
Free version has to bet promoted, payed version is for those who want to support are play online
Really? So James and the guys have to work for free because you say so? What if they devolope the game and keep it for themselves? They do the work, they keep the game. But this is not what we all want, right?

REMEMBER: They are asking for the money to devolope the game and it sounds QUITE FAIR they get our help, it is the minimum they could ask for, and they did, they just asked for the minimum cooperation. If you can´t understand that... there is no point in arguing anymore.

Now, I will wait patiently for the next funding project they start and I will definetly be there ready to help.

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Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:36 am
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
only way to save the spirit of the first generally. And we are a lot to want to play online.


Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:38 am
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
Glen wrote:
only way to save the spirit of the first generally. And we are a lot to want to play online.


My goodness why do people keep going on about the "spirit" of GR1?! It had spirit just because it was free?! That same community spirit will be retained and even enhanced so long as the game is good enough and continues to allow the level of modification of GR1 (in fact it is going to be even greater with the bundled car editor).

£8/€8 is not a lot to ask. Even as a child (over 25 years ago) I was paying that for my Spectrum games! And that doesn't include inflation to now nor the increased quality of the product over then. I even paid £3-£5 for Shareware on my Amiga not much longer after that.


Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:47 am
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
The Kickstarter failed because it was (and in it current state, is) a bad investment. You cannot expect people to shell out money for a to be developed game made by people with no noteable previous successes. Not saying James & co have no clue what they're doing but all they've released is an update to an existing game and a tech demo which look like a decent flash game.
I mean, for a moddable game it is....poor. There's no car editor, no track editor, not even a screenshot!

Whilst it being a small price, you cannot expect people to make an investment in your game while what you're showing is far too less. Had there been a car editor (or just something to apply a skin, whatever), a basic track editor, a couple of tracks to race on it could've worked out. There's too many will do's and too less we have's.

To be honest, the way it was set up it was deemed to fail. For a little racing game with close to no exposure collecting 6k GBP by just 300 people is the absolute maximum. Especially when you're starting with "The sequel to the freeware, highly-moddable top-down arcade racing game first released in 2002. Racing fun for both young and old!". The sequel as it stands right now is not moddable and not freeware, nor has it actually got any racing! To you and me there IS a difference between both games but I can understand there isn't to a lot of people, then why don't go with the freeware version that has more content than you can dream of?

And the saddest is, there is a fully function GR1 with 12 cars which is never going to see the daylight :vsad:.

Quote:
Really? So James and the guys have to work for free because you say so? What if they devolope the game and keep it for themselves? They do the work, they keep the game. But this is not what we all want, right?

REMEMBER: They are asking for the money to devolope the game and it sounds QUITE FAIR they get our help, it is the minimum they could ask for, and they did, they just asked for the minimum cooperation. If you can´t understand that... there is no point in arguing anymore.


Honestly, that's not how things work. You can't force people to shell out their hard earned cash because some people want to do their hobby project...which this is. They have to convince that their project is brilliant, they're brilliant and skilled enough to reach the targets they've set and that they're actually progressing very well.

However, if you look at the facts:
- They have no prior mentioned experience with creating a game from scratch.
- They have no mentioned experience with creating an online multiplayer system.
- They're creating a moddable racing game but there are no modding tools nor any actual racing possible.

Whilst it does have potention, James & co should've waited another 6 months before asking us for fundings. And aim for a lower goal.


Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:30 am
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
Alonsomania wrote:
And the saddest is, there is a fully function GR1 with 12 cars which is never going to see the daylight :vsad:

I don't think James ever said it was fully functional - I think it's more like a buggy version that's glued together with bubble gum. ;)

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Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:49 am
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
Alonsomania wrote:
The Kickstarter failed because....


To be brutally honest in my opinion you are spot on there. The core fans will happily overlook these points in hope of getting what we are confident will eventually exist. But those core fans aren't going to fund this project enough on their own (obviously including myself in that as I happily contributed to the project campaign), it needs more from those who are new to GeneRally and those will be put off by the points you have made.


Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:22 pm
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
You know, all this back and forth abouth free vs. pay has me wondering, what would the Rabinas have to say about it? If I recall correctly, they handed the code for GR1 over to James and Co. with specific instructions on how it was to be used (not to be open sourced being one them). So I have to wonder what they'd think of this sequel, especially the pay part. And also maybe part of why the dev team does not want to accept outside help because of the non-open source clause.

@tonyyeb just because "it isn't done anymore" doesn't mean they can't use that model for the free/paid version differences. Like others have said, let's be honest. How many people outside our community will want to pay for this seemingly simple game which looks like it should be a game on a site like Kongregate (at least in it's current state) without getting to have the experience for free, and see the true power of the game. You can't really make a feature-stripped demo of this because the thing you' have to take out is modding, and modding is the core of GeneRally. Without it, there's not anything impressive. The graphics are minimal, the default cars aren't terribly impressive, and there just wouldn't be anything there in a demo to make someone want to buy, imo.

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Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:03 pm
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
I've been watching the Kickstarter on and off, and although I've made no secret over my viewpoint, I've not come back here to gloat, but to leave my genuine thoughts (leaving out some of the more personal views I have.)

I have to say that Bba has hit the nail squarely on the head; GR 2.0 is not in a marketable position of the market right now, and it possibly will never be. Arguments of "it's only £8" are irrelevant; yes, to someone in the UK or the US that is a relatively insignificant amount of money, but for some of the younger members here, those living in far poorer countries, or even students on much more marginal loans than I who are struggling to make ends meet, £8 just doesn't make sense for a game that is too similar to a freeware title. People need to stop harping on about "the devs deserve monetary compensation" - this is a hobby project based on a freeware game, so no, they don't necessarily deserve any compensation beyond voluntary donations. Considering that I've bought games like Skyrim, and Test Drive Unlimited 2 (IIRC), for much less than £8 on sales, and that I can pick up something as awesome and underrated as Driver San Francisco right now for £3.34 on Amazon, it makes the £8 price look even more ridiculous - whilst those games are obviously not new any more, they are still much better value for money, and they're not exactly hideous, totally broken games from 15 years ago either (they may not be flawless, TDU2 in particular - but how many games are?) What games cost in the Spectrum era is not relevant in the slightest. I also wonder what the Rabina's think about this; in their position, I'd be absolutely livid, but that's hardly surprising given my views.

As for "free projects don't exist any more" - you clearly don't know what you're talking about. OpenTTD and Racer are two long-term projects that immediately spring to mind; and for anyone who says "well, they are long-term projects; no standalone games are released that way any more", consider Fistful of Frags, which is a ruddy good game, and has no micro-transactions or payment methods of any kind - the only money spent is any donations that may occur, and on dedicated servers. That was released as a standalone game in May - although that game has been around as a Half-Life 2 mod for a fair while now - and it is still being developed. The community spirit will not be enhanced by GR2.0; in fact, it's already been damaged. The fact that there have been some fairly big disagreements over the direction of GeneRally (even disregarding what I've personally said in those debates, and my subsequent departure from the scene) is both a factor, and an example, in this. Splitting the community into those who can afford/want to pay for the game, and those who don't, is also not going to help the community spirit.

Alonsomania's points are also spot on - £20k, as I pointed out a long time ago (albeit when the figure was £25k - and yet, since then, the living cost proportion went up dramatically; I didn't bother doing the sums to see if the actual amount had changed, but that's not my point), as did several other people, was never going to be an achievable goal, and I don't believe that extending the Kickstarter would've made any difference; the devs said far too little, and the money was trickling in - at the rate it was trickling in, it would've taken a couple of years to get to the goal. Nor would altering the timing of the Kickstarter; you may have got an extra £2k (being VERY generous), but you'd still have been miles off that goal. No amount of PR was going to salvage it, and having strong influence with friends was still not going to be enough. There should've been a day-by-day account of exactly what you were trying to do; and to what degree that had worked. Prioritizing bug-fixing during a Kickstarter isn't a good idea; there has to be a balance between the two, and that wasn't shown publicly. The lack of even the most basic of modding tools - or even their frameworks - did not help either. The demo itself was nowhere near ready for a Kickstarter, and the campaign should never have been started before it was ready; you're indie devs, the only deadlines are the ones you set yourselves, and you've been around the block enough times (certainly in James' case) to know exactly what happens when projects get pushed out too quickly, too promptly.


Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:48 pm
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
I don't think James and co. have anything to lose making GR2 P2P instead of freeware. If it doesn't make any money with an £8 price tag, it won't be a popular game as a free one either. World revolves around money and it would help gauging the popularity and determining the future direction of the game.

As for the "community spirit", I don't think it's much of a thing anyway. I don't care for "splitting" the community, most of the old players have disappeared by now anyway and GR1 will still be free and those still willing to play it can do so.

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Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:32 am
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
Hangman wrote:
I don't think James and co. have anything to lose making GR2 P2P instead of freeware. If it doesn't make any money with an £8 price tag, it won't be a popular game as a free one either. World revolves around money and it would help gauging the popularity and determining the future direction of the game.


I disagree, some people (like myself) are more willing to try things they aren't sure about for free rather than having to pay for it, then find out they don't like it after spending a bit of money on it. I think it would be more popular as a freeware title (like another game we know... :hide: ) because of that reason. More people try it, more people may find they like it, and the community grows. Not so much if the only option is a pay version that is seemingly overpriced for what you get to those who do not know GR1.

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Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:23 am
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
It is funny, honestly, how only those who have to share a disencouraging or negative point find the time to write the holy bible in a post just to let us know how much 8€ means for a kid in Namibia... and you are the people supposed to be backing the project? :ouch:

It is curious how most of my close friends who never heard a word about GR backed the project with their money just because I suggested them to do and it was worth. And then, you guys, or some of you, being around for years can find 8€ to spend when possibly you waste them every day in tobacco, or every week in cofee or who knows. Based on your thoughts, next month I will tell the Internet company that from now onwards I want the service for free, let´s see what happens.

Lukeno94 wrote:
this is a hobby project based on a freeware game, so no, they don't necessarily deserve any compensation beyond voluntary donations. Considering that I've bought games like Skyrim, and Test Drive Unlimited 2 (IIRC), for much less than £8 on sales, and that I can pick up something as awesome and underrated as Driver San Francisco right now for £3.34 on Amazon, it makes the £8 price look even more ridiculous
I don´t know about your experience with GR, but to me, if I count the amount of hours I have spent with it and the amount of fun I had compared with any other game you want out there, there is no comparation point. So it worths at least that 8€. Apart, it was not the price of the game, but the minimum amount to donate and back the project to help the guys devoloping it.

Taking a look in your profile, you have posted up to 4112 messages in the Generally forum and you say a sequel of this game, that is supposed to be the same but just much better, doesn´t deserve a minimum effort as paying 8€ from someone like you. Sorry, but that makes me laugh... :rofl: Now is when it colapses and when I can´t understand a thing of what is going on in here.

I can agree with most of you in the fact that the Kickstarter campaign was not perfectly timed with the game development point, so the impresion people had might have been wrong, and even with that, in just one month they got more than 6K britsh pounds wich is a lot.

But I guess it is normal... based in my experience in other projects I have been involved I know only the most negative people use to be the one posting and sharing their thoughts, while the rest stands in line waiting for news.

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Last edited by Black Rebel on Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:33 am
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
I'm tired of all of this, I wont follow generally 2 topics anymore. I'll maybe be back around christmas


Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:47 am
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
Black Rebel wrote:
Lukeno94 wrote:
this is a hobby project based on a freeware game, so no, they don't necessarily deserve any compensation beyond voluntary donations. Considering that I've bought games like Skyrim, and Test Drive Unlimited 2 (IIRC), for much less than £8 on sales, and that I can pick up something as awesome and underrated as Driver San Francisco right now for £3.34 on Amazon, it makes the £8 price look even more ridiculous
I don´t know about your experience with GR, but to me, if I count the amount of hours I have spent with it and the amount of fun I had compared with any other game you want out there, there is no comparation point. So it worths at least that 8€. Apart, it was not the price of the game, but the minimum amount to donate and back the project to help the guys devoloping it.

Taking a look in your profile, you have posted up to 4112 messages in the Generally forum and you say a sequel of this game, that is supposed to be the same but just much better, doesn´t deserve a minimum effort as paying 8€ from someone like you. Sorry, but that makes me laugh... :rofl: Now is when it colapses and when I can´t understand a thing of what is going on in here.

I can agree with most of you in the fact that the Kickstarter campaign was not perfectly timed with the game development point, so the impresion people had might have been wrong, and even with that, in just one month they got more than 6K britsh pounds wich is a lot.


Yes, I don't think the game is worth £8; I'd never have spent a penny on GR1, and as I've said, there are FAR better games that I can get for that money. Heck, I've bought whole consoles for less (original Xbox for a fiver, a pair of DSes for £7). I very rarely cared about actually playing the game itself; in fact, ever since the graphics issue I had several years ago, I've barely played it outside of compos, and I focused almost solely on car making (with the odd track thrown in) - an activity that was never 100% supported by the game, as there were no official tools for it. In terms of hours I've put into actually playing the game, OpenTTD is probably very similar - and that didn't cost me a penny either. I've almost certainly spent far more time actually playing games like Modern Warfare 2, Age of Empires II, Race 07, Minecraft and FIFA 04 than I ever did with GeneRally. The number of messages I've posted here is beyond irrelevant; I used to enjoy being part of this community, before the farce that has been the GR2.0 project ruined it totally for me. Yes, £6k is a lot, but ever since the initial splurge of members here buying ridiculously overpriced perks ended (paying £100 to give away the rights to some of your own work? That's stupid, particularly as it says "with the team" - so not only were you giving away the rights to your car, it may be nothing like your car at the end! No wonder no-one bought it. The £800 perk was just disgusting, and HUGELY elitist.) the money was literally trickling in, at such a slow rate that it would've been years before the goal would've been met.

Equally, Hangman's statement of "If it doesn't make any money with an £8 price tag, it won't be a popular game as a free one either." is beyond nonsensical - how on earth can you come to that conclusion? Literally millions of people played TrackMania Nations and Nations Forever, but look how few people have moved on to TrackMania 2: Stadium since that was released as a P2P game. This project is in EXACTLY the same position as that game. Oh, and you know what TM2: Stadium costs on Steam? £8. Funny, that.


Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:42 am
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
Don't waste your energy argueing if the game should be funded or free.

I think we are lucky to have a team working on Generally2, and hopefully in the near future we could be playing online this game. That is our objective to have Generally2 to enjoy.

If the dev team need some funding we all must do our best to help them, or else keep playing gr1 alone.

Come one be positive - be ONE - together we can do IT!


Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:46 am
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
Lukeno94 wrote:
Literally millions of people played TrackMania Nations and Nations Forever, but look how few people have moved on to TrackMania 2: Stadium since that was released as a P2P game. This project is in EXACTLY the same position as that game. Oh, and you know what TM2: Stadium costs on Steam? £8. Funny, that.


I was a TM hard core player and the reason why I loved it so much was exactly the simple fact - FREE game. TM was without superb graphics, or sounds, or gameplay but it was free. Of course with a little payment your custom skin or car will be visible to the other players. I was even ready to pay for that! I will leave you to think about why. ;)
Everything was awesome but then they cutted the free stuff and maded new pay rules which ruined the game and 2/3 of it's players disappeared.

Like before this time too I will support Lukeno's viewpoint because the whole GR2 as a paid game concept is not very correct.

Lukeno94 is totally right, hate me if you wish but the whole world is not just one country (UK in this case) where you can buy everything that you want without worrying about what you will do tomorrow.

Black Rebel wrote:
It is funny, honestly, how only those who have to share a disencouraging or negative point find the time to write the holy bible in a post just to let us know how much 8€ means for a kid in Namibia... and you are the people supposed to be backing the project? :ouch:


It's funny what would happen if you were THIS kid in Namibia and what you will say then...

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Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:51 pm
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
Its an interesting arguement when comparing it to Trackmania. I dont know anything about the later paid versions, but I know the original nations version, as mentioned, was free but you could pay for a more advanced version and/or the full Trackmania game.

Exactly the proposal put forward for GR2

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Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:22 pm
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
I think a few people here are missing Basic Game Development Compromises 101. In an ideal world everyone would of course get great games for free every year (or a game so awesome that it lasts them years upon years). We live in the real world, so obviously that's not going to happen without a compromise somewhere.

The developers' choices, regardless of genre, basically breaks down into three schools of thought, and the developers have to pick two to focus on.
1) Quality. The game should be very enjoyable.
2) Monetary cost-effectiveness. The developers shouldn't have to break their bank accounts trying to make this.
3) Time cost-effectiveness. The developers don't want to commit to ten years updating their title.
Open-source and most indie titles try to go for focusing on point 1 and 2, (good) big-name titles go for 1 and 3, and crap goes to 2 and 3.

If we want examples, I will give a very focused example of the trains of thought:
Points 1 and 2: Assetto Corsa. Fans waited forever and ever for this, but it paid off: it's the best sim ever (yes, even in Early Access), now with next-gen graphics!
Points 1 and 3: Project CARS. People didn't want to wait for the GT/Forza killer, so they threw big money at a developer to make one.
Points 2 and 3: Grid Autosport. The assets were mostly recycled from GRID 2, and it was on a one-year development cycle. The result is inevitable.

I'd also like to point out that there's a very big difference between Nadeo releasing not just one but two free TrackMania titles and the GR dev team releasing... GR. You see, a fairly big-name studio like Nadeo doesn't just put out a title for free. TrackMania Nations ESWC, as its name implies, was for the Electronic Sports World Cup. GR, on the other hand, is a free title because a few guys thought it was actually pretty fun, so they shared it. Learning this distinction is important for why Nadeo "ruined" TrackMania.

There's a price for enjoying someone else's work for free, you know.

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Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:30 pm
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
Bouncebackability wrote:
Its an interesting arguement when comparing it to Trackmania. I dont know anything about the later paid versions, but I know the original nations version, as mentioned, was free but you could pay for a more advanced version and/or the full Trackmania game.

Exactly the proposal put forward for GR2


Yes and no. TrackMania Nations was a totally standalone game based on TrackMania Sunrise. Although it used some of the elements from that game, the environment was totally new for that game. This was the game that introduced most of TrackMania's playerbase to the game; Sunrise, and the original title, are much more niche games, and as such, are much rarer and less well known. Nations Forever was a cut-down version of TrackMania United Forever; it was exactly the same game, but with only the Stadium environment (no other features were cut, just the environments). The multiplayer was 100% compatible across the games when restricted to the Stadium environment.

With TM2, Nadeo not only began charging for the previously-free Stadium environment (£8/$10), but also began selling each biome separately (for prices that are ludicrously high compared to what people paid for United Forever's all-in-one nature.) With the Nations Forever/United Forever game, the vast majority of players played the free-to-play Nations Forever; I believe there were 6 or 7 million registered players the last time I looked, with multiple servers having up to (and even over) 100 players at one time, prior to TM2's release. Since TM2 came out, however, not only has the number of active TMNF players dropped sharply, but TM2 has, for all intents and purposes, flopped; only a handful of servers actually have any players on them. I only got TM2 due to the Steam sale over Christmas - and although it is definitely a better game, the change in business model has led to Nadeo shooting themselves in the foot. It certainly doesn't have the same level of content, even now, that TMUF shipped new with (a game I also own) - in fact, it has no more biomes than Sunrise did.

@Haruna: Barely anyone had ever played TrackMania, or even heard of it, prior to Nations - Nadeo were a very minor company at that point; and let's be honest, they still are (although obviously bigger than the GR devs). That game was what got most people into TrackMania.


Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:43 pm
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
So...

Trackmania Sunrise/original = Generally 2 paid
Trackmania nations/united forever = Generally 2 free

In both cases the free versions are based on the paid versions, but with less features

:shrug:

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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
Bouncebackability wrote:
So...

Trackmania Sunrise/original = Generally 2 paid
Trackmania nations/united forever = Generally 2 free

In both cases the free versions are based on the paid versions, but with less features

:shrug:


Wrong. The only valid comparison is United Forever (paid) and Nations Forever (free). Nations was a different game to Sunrise; it uses the assets and the game engine, but had a unique environment. The original game has no relevance at all (apart from the update that gave it Sunrise's engine)


Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:55 pm
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
That is exactly the model we need for GR. There should be a free version to draw in those who are not already hardcore GR players (the members of this community) and then the pay version with extra features (online multiplayer, perhaps weather, extra vehicle physics like boats and bikes, etc.)

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Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:03 pm
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
puttz wrote:
That is exactly the model we need for GR. There should be a free version to draw in those who are not already hardcore GR players (the members of this community) and then the pay version with extra features (online multiplayer, perhaps weather, extra vehicle physics like boats and bikes, etc.)
Can you be more specific how is the GR2 as introduced on KS different from your vision, please?

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Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:20 pm
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Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:59 am
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
puttz wrote:
That is exactly the model we need for GR. There should be a free version to draw in those who are not already hardcore GR players (the members of this community) and then the pay version with extra features (online multiplayer, perhaps weather, extra vehicle physics like boats and bikes, etc.)


Except TMNF *had* multiplayer. And the multiplayer was also fully featured, bar the missing biomes.


Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:37 pm
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Post Re: GeneRally 2 - Kickstarter Launched
Luke, stop comparing this to Trackmania. It's a different situation entirely. About the only thing you could limit in GR2 without making it completely stripped down is the online multiplayer, and a differet amount of cars, I suppose. Honestly, if you have nothing new to say it might be prefferable for you to go back into the woodwork.

@ivo, it is not different than the KS presentation. I'm saying that for the people who think that GR2 should be pay only, no free version.

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Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:34 pm
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