[ral] Agrestina

[AleksiNir]

Vitor and Manzur seem to love your track, Dan said it's a nice effort, Ivo gave 4/5, Egamad said he liked it, Martyn said it's great, I said it seems good. If that isn't a good evaluation, then what is? The people (mostly Dan and egamad) are just giving you hints on how the track could've been better, and you're just denying all their help.

Also, I don't recall TuomoH ever saying that this is "his" community, or flaunting that he is an important person or something.

[Primeracer]

The way I see it, there are only 2 logical explanations possible:

A - you have people issues.
B - troll detected.

Seriously. You keep going on about standards and stuff I can't really understand, but the thing is, you just can't take criticism, even in minor doses. Now you need to ask yourself a quesition: do you really want people to stop commenting on your work just because you can't take it rather than let them say their true opinion?

Oh my... i´m trying to be patient... What a hard thing! Again that gossip about criticism... welll, let me explain again... their track recieved criticism, but not a fair clean way. I´m not against commenting!! i want you commenting, but you as trackmasters, ego inflated by the others all the time cannot understand what i´m speaking off... i am not against criticism, but criticism must have a less unwillingly basis... a criteria, a foundation! Your criticism is just sumary, almost blind, watching for just what do you want to see. Passive! Not alive. It´s like to be on a dead end! The point aren´t anymore on accepting criticism, it is just a silly protection you are using on your argues, that are nothing but, confortable relative thinking, dead passive argumentation. Something may be or not convenient! Please forget about criticism, it deviates the focus. 'Opinions', 'criticism', 'be cool' leave yoruselves that self protective stuff please. Talking the entire time on this 'criticism' ' I talk, you´d just keeps to post something againt... just the same go on this. So more of this.

Understanding... requires a people want to!

[XYY]

Topic will be closed until an admin/mod sees this and solves the situation.

[TuomoH]

No need to stay locked.

How do you know people are carelessly evaluating your track? If it were well evaluated, for sure the comments will be different!
You can't be sure about that! Different people have different opinions. Even if someone sees your point it doesn't mean he has to agree with it.

GR Community are not yours
I never said that. The community is the people and the community had something to suggest for how they thought the track could be better.

You indeed are one of the leaders of this behavior on this community.
Can you explain how exactly, please?

So what comments did you got? This track here are not also like Estio. It´s not an TuomoH track...
Like your track, many compliments but also some criticism, such as your track. I'm not saying this track is a TuomoH track. I'm just pointing out that I definitely am not one of those "standardists".

i everytime ADMIRATED your works
Thank you.

Arguing for speaking that there are no "standardices' again.. is useless. You said, it prove to work, but why?
I'm not saying there aren't standards. But what I'm trying to say is that if the standards make the tracks more playable for example, they work. For instance, people said your track is too narrow because they thought it wasn't fun anymore, for THEM. It's everyone's own opinion. You can't force your opinion on everyone, as I already said.

Ha, do you think i´m not analizin it too? It makes the thing more sinister! So just right now do you testify me many track evaluations are unfair! When saying MS works are loved, even considered weird. Much more weird is this strange... much strange fenomena.
Maybe Masa's tracks are more playable in people's minds? I don't know, just guessing. Also remember that Masa has been making tracks for a very long time and has gotten also criticism. And he's taken some of that criticism in mind and changed things in his next tracks while at the same time keeping to his vision, but making them also more appealing to the big audience.

Bottom line is: Your track has gotten much good comments. It has also gotten some criticism. It's because people don't think it's a perfect track - because no track can be perfect! If you want to stick to your way of trackmaking, do it - that's what I've done for example. But if you really want people to like your tracks, you need to find the good point between own vision and people's wishes.

[Primeracer]

No need to stay locked.

How do you know people are carelessly evaluating your track? If it were well evaluated, for sure the comments will be different!
You can't be sure about that! Different people have different opinions. Even if someone sees your point it doesn't mean he has to agree with it.

GR Community are not yours
I never said that. The community is the people and the community had something to suggest for how they thought the track could be better.

You indeed are one of the leaders of this behavior on this community.
Can you explain how exactly, please?

So what comments did you got? This track here are not also like Estio. It´s not an TuomoH track...
Like your track, many compliments but also some criticism, such as your track. I'm not saying this track is a TuomoH track. I'm just pointing out that I definitely am not one of those "standardists".

i everytime ADMIRATED your works
Thank you.

Arguing for speaking that there are no "standardices' again.. is useless. You said, it prove to work, but why?
I'm not saying there aren't standards. But what I'm trying to say is that if the standards make the tracks more playable for example, they work. For instance, people said your track is too narrow because they thought it wasn't fun anymore, for THEM. It's everyone's own opinion. You can't force your opinion on everyone, as I already said. You are the ones that cannot force your opinions based on your mindity about trackmaking, i´m new here (not so) you are on the COLTROL of this business, but myself don't. If someone wants the others to aways, everyday make things the same way it wasn´t myself again. Thee thing is centralized sir... it got a position like a program 'source code' works like really defaults, it is not a fair thing.

Ha, do you think i´m not analizin it too? It makes the thing more sinister! So just right now do you testify me many track evaluations are unfair! When saying MS works are loved, even considered weird. Much more weird is this strange... much strange fenomena.
Maybe Masa's tracks are more playable in people's minds? I don't know, just guessing. Also remember that Masa has been making tracks for a very long time and has gotten also criticism. And he's taken some of that criticism in mind and changed things in his next tracks while at the same time keeping to his vision, but making them also more appealing to the big audience. To say to you... i'm already trying to make things for people to enjoy not only to me... the fun i have with this one are possible to others to have. Opinions confuses itself with a fact... it´s a fact that this track just actually aren't this undesirable! Go and check lmap on an editor, you can see clearly ate lest a very good quality, it´s clearly visible on the lmap

Bottom line is: Your track has gotten much good comments. It has also gotten some criticism. I´s recieved much more eof these sumarities than more elaborated words, if you red agin, were much more deficiencies attributed then good quality considered, much thing has passed until that time unwillingly seen It's because people don't think it's a perfect track - because no track can be perfect! If you want to stick to your way of trackmaking, do it - that's what I've done for example. But if you really want people to like your tracks, you need to find the good point between own vision and people's wishes.

Well i´m a little tired of this discussion. Ok... sactisfying peoples wishes here, will be much diffcult to many here, that wishes are now driven... like it ws put into a box...
Actually a fact, that this Agrestina was likeable already, even if haq done´see use for cones, or Egamad looked it like an arcadish track far from the reality, or complaining about being so narrow, the fact is all that issues would not to be put ahead of the real track quality it have, that are not behind on quality but... almost all the approuches went directly into putting deficiencies, very different from other ratings i´ve seen since rsc forums about the tracks. It do not recieve a consideration of it´s real valor before a same ways ever ordinal way of criticism that judges everytime by a given way.. a same given way...


But... ok... ok. So... i will need to got something on these type of commenting... i dont´want to see youselves as just clients, of an business, i don´t wnato you stop commenting... what i´m realy wanting is another thing.

Merged double reply from Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:31 pm:

Ok folks, there are a new version. i've tried to get nearer with it... see what you folks think about.

[TuomoH]

You are the ones that cannot force your opinions based on your mindity about trackmaking, i´m new here (not so) you are on the COLTROL of this business, but myself don't.
First of all, I don't control trackmaking. Secondly, I'm just talking about people's opinions. I'm not forcing anything. It's just that if you want to make a popular track you'll make what people want to see. If not, then expect to get criticism. As simple as that.

it got a position like a program 'source code' works like really defaults, it is not a fair thing.
Someone needs to test the game before the release, you do realize that? Then why not a member of the official GR staff? And what's fair and unfair anyway? Things don't always go exactly the way one wants. Surprisingly seldom actually if you really think about it.

To say to you... i'm already trying to make things for people to enjoy not only to me... the fun i have with this one are possible to others to have. Opinions confuses itself with a fact... it´s a fact that this track just actually aren't this undesirable! Go and check lmap on an editor, you can see clearly ate lest a very good quality, it´s clearly visible on the lmap
I'm not saying it isn't of low quality. No one has said this is a bad track. It's just not perfect for everyone, you see? And still, I'm sure that there are many people who enjoy the track anyway.

I´s recieved much more eof these sumarities than more elaborated words, if you red agin, were much more deficiencies attributed then good quality considered
People usually say it like that. There's nothing new in that. Did you notice that everyone also complimented your track? Most liked it. They just wanted to say their opinion about the track WHICH YOU ASKED. If there's a flaw in people's eyes they mention it. And why shouldn't they?

Well i´m a little tired of this discussion.
Likewise.

[Primeracer]

GR staff, acting like that! You are to show a example for the other players... and cannot see... I'm keeping on explaining, but useless, you just see only what you want to! Then come with this gossip about people likings! Let me repeat this track was sufficient to get a really good approval, if people doens´t like it CAN easely be a result of unwillingly disposition about something out of an control, an confortable auto sugestive mindity judgement something i don't have about mine and indeed your tracks! But do you have! Everytime the same programated way of thinking, like a machine... what is lacking on this discusion i´m losing time keeping on explaining things you just refuse to accept as a real clean criticism, and come talk about me to accept criticism, are you or another accepted anything i pointed here today?

What lacks here like moisture on a desert is HUMILITY! I say do you need to start looking at your own works, and stop this everyday way of seeing trackmaking here. Start to thinking alive! More attention would change this! Some people do not really liked it because just by seeing imperfections a ut they ARE CHOSING to do not give a correct valor to the thing, its a choice that can be done with an simple heart or not! Would be really recieved. I´m keep on trying to say that this track doens't recieved the valor they worth off! It would be liked, but for unfair reason it aren´t, it's beyond merely opinions! We have no opinions only about all things!

Did think i´m don´t know that you and you 'club' aren´t talking in off about this discussion? Think that i don´t know what type of things you are yourselves speaking about ? Where are them? I see that they left only you speaking here, any of then appeared again! Only keeps on an 'heroism' to control the situation, on keeping the same ideas. Man... you and your mates will not to lure me anymore! G I V E U P of trying to winning over my tiredness. Don´t keping on fatiguing me! I don´t like your inflated ego that you everyday exercise one on another here, everyday! GR community ar not yours nor mine! your pisition is a position of control ven if you just say no!

[TuomoH]

I'm keeping on explaining, but useless, you just see only what you want to!

First of all, I understand your view. However, as always, there is more than one side to every thing. I'm keeping on explaining but you just see only what you want to see.

Let me repeat this track was sufficient to get a really good approval

Many people have said they like your track. Isn't that approval to you? What else do you want? People have just pointed some things that they think makes it less than perfect. Why do you have a problem with that?

what is lacking on this discusion i´m losing time keeping on explaining things you just refuse to accept as a real clean criticism, and come talk about me to accept criticism, are you or another accepted anything i pointed here today?

I accept what you say about standardism for instance, I've already said that. Why are you refusing to accept that you've gotten real clean criticism? You've gotten both positive and negative. People feel a certain way about certain things and base it on their own fun level - why isn't that real clean criticism?

Some people do not really liked it because just by seeing imperfections a ut they ARE CHOSING to do not give a correct valor to the thing, its a choice that can be done with an simple heart or not!

No one has seen JUST imperfections. Everyone who has commented your track have also said good things about it. Why do you only see the negative criticism? Why don't you see all the good things people ahve said? To me it seems it's you who's concentrating on the negative.

I´m keep on trying to say that this track doens't recieved the valor they worth off! It would be liked, but for unfair reason it aren´t, it's beyond merely opinions!

But many people have said they like it. What more do you want? Let's see:

I love your work Primeracer!!!

Liked the track, oasis-feeling...

I said, nice effort .

I like it..

I liked the track

It still looks great

Other than that everything seems good.

Does this really looks to you that people don't like your track? If you can't see that people actually like it, there's nothing more I can say.

Did think i´m don´t know that you and you 'club' aren´t talking in off about this discussion?

There is no club, I'm talking here as an individual.

Think that i don´t know what type of things you are yourselves speaking about ? Where are them?

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

I see that they left only you speaking here, any of then appeared again!

I'm not the one who says who has to talk and who not. Maybe others "left only" me speaking since you and me are the only ones who have really gotten into deeper discussion.

Only keeps on an 'heroism' to control the situation, on keeping the same ideas.

I don't want to control any trackmaking situation, apart from my own tracks of course. As I have said, I also like things not standard, just take a look into many many of my tracks. You've actually gotten here more positive comments than I have with many of my weird tracks. Why is that if I'm in a some club and you're the one treated unfair?

Don´t keping on fatiguing me!

I'm not trying to fatique you. I'm just trying to get you to see the both sides of the coin. I see the both sides. I understand what you're saying, why don't you understand what I'm trying to say? You claim people don't like your track when in fact everyone has said good things about it, as you can see from the quotes above.

I don´t like your inflated ego that you everyday exercise one on another here, everyday!

Can you explain how exactly I do that, please? Actually, you claim many things about me which are not true. Are you sure it isn't your ego that's inflated here?

If you think you have been treated unfair, can you show me where? You talk about it but you haven't shown where. You claim that people don't like your track for some unfair reason but in the comments I've quoted above I see an exact opposite of not liking.

[PacmanOwnage]

Would this be a bad time for me to say, I like the track... but there just are too many objects for my own personal taste, it's good enough to download, but I won't keep it plainly because I'm not a big fan of rallies/non-fullscreen tracks.


I just felt left out

[Primeracer]

Do you seems complicates the thing a way so cleverly... But ok...

Your people, finds you are aways reasonable, aways judicious don't you? Someone spaking like is the reasonable, like me are a mad. You says is just your own view, but you state it as the truth, your position is not really humble here with me. Your position is like you are on the truth. Nothiong i said was recieved different than as if was just madness. You are really believing all the ways you think are perfect, your concepts, your opinions, are aways reasonable. Do you are not understanding what it says... About some nice things you isolated writen from the all that each spoken, i may say not all the Gr players are on the problem i stated here

Very well i will go direct to the point of this discussion. Calmly...

You need considering all players works by an open, clean criteria capable of considering stuff a fair way not a driven way like is unfortunately happening. Some comments pointed things as failures that weren´t needed even of considered as imperfections. With this i'm stating that a better observation would change that. I have my point of views even seeing thinga all of you seems to find good on your own tracks, but i do not went to comment like you actually do. These things that creates makes the overated stuff and badly evaluated works. Egamad and Haq's comments were cold, unwillingly, like many of TGF's very regrettable comments for an example. It's needed a people have a good will for an opinion, unwillingly disposed, if a people don't want to, we cannot say anything by a really good way, don't matter it´s a pov, or opinion, opinions are not absolute. For yourself, opinions created like an own proven working well state on your trackmaking, but is a property of yourselves, if you just pass all stuff made by a rash same repititious driven judgement. So are you just believing that your opinions can judge all things, it´s a several misleading... You Tuomo as Gr staff cannot still being the all time reasonable, always a judicious and accept this type of errors.

Well... I´m trying on about your community folks, since years. I've seen similar situation on my days as guild master on the giant game World of Warcraft, but Generally aren´t as giant as WoW, millions of WoW players, but you are much less people here. I will keep on trying about this community of yourselves...

[Lorenzo]

Even cold comments which contain constructive criticism written by someone who spents the better part of his spare time on trackmaking, and who knows everything about that is way better than any applause from newbies. You are on a good way to become a true trackmaker; if you decide to release tracks here, you decide to follow the good advices if your tracks aren't perfect. I wish you spent the whole time you used for writing these pointless posts on building new track according to advices that you were given... then we could probably see something much better than now .

[Primeracer]

Would this be a bad time for me to say, I like the track... but there just are too many objects for my own personal taste, it's good enough to download, but I won't keep it plainly because I'm not a big fan of rallies/non-fullscreen tracks.


I just felt left out

You though i would to speak pehaps... being so hard on words to refute on your comment? Other made me a comment refuter man... it's I see many find it had many objects... for me it´s not a problem... the way that many objcts are placen is actuyally reasonabel for this track. Well... i can just to ask for you to try the track better, i believe you can experiencing a good playing out of the non-fullscreen very low WS rally trackmaking rule... believing that anyone personal taste are not an absolute thing at all. Thank you for commenting.

[Primeracer]

Even cold comments which contain constructive criticism written by someone who spents the better part of his spare time on trackmaking, and who knows everything about that is way better than any applause from newbies. You are on a good way to become a true trackmaker; if you decide to release tracks here, you decide to follow the good advices if your tracks aren't perfect. I wish you spent the whole time you used for writing these pointless posts on building new track according to advices that you were given... then we could probably see something much better than now .

Pick the point Lorenzo... i'm already using to working on quality things by a long time i am searching for on others works. Differently as it seemed. I´m aways admirated that trackmakers works... i'm not so newbie that way, but i'd just managed to release very few things since 2003. I see when Crowella, Markus Moller appeared with his impresive works. I don't were released, but i knowing how the things works here, i'm tryin on avoiding dead end like sumarities about my stuff.... like indeed on that time. But the capacity of these trackmakers cannot gain the form that actually gained here... even their tracks aren't this so perfect they a perfection defaut, they just seems don't wanting to see this.

[TuomoH]

You says is just your own view, but you state it as the truth, your position is not really humble here with me. Your position is like you are on the truth.

Of course what people say are their opinions, not objective truths. But if you want to make a track that most people like, then you need to treat those subjective opinions as truth. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying that there's only one right way of doing things. For the community, it's actually better if there are people doing many things. But with the community come different opinions, too.

You are really believing all the ways you think are perfect, your concepts, your opinions, are aways reasonable.

No, I don't believe that. I know I'm just a human. Do you believe that your opinion here is 100% reasonable? Or is it possible that there's something more to to the issue than just that?

You need considering all players works by an open, clean criteria capable of considering stuff a fair way not a driven way like is unfortunately happening.

Ok, let me ask you this: What exactly do you think is a clean criteria for fair criticism?

With this i'm stating that a better observation would change that.

How can you be 100% sure about that?

I have my point of views even seeing thinga all of you seems to find good on your own tracks, but i do not went to comment like you actually do. These things that creates makes the overated stuff and badly evaluated works.

Well, maybe you should comment on those tracks so they wouldn't become too overrated. If no one tells their opinions in the form of criticism, how can you expect anything to change?

Egamad and Haq's comments were cold

Different people have different ways of saying things. Still, both egamad's and Dan's criticism was constructive. When you ask for comments, don't you want constructive critisicm?

opinions are not absolute.

Right, I know that, of course opinions are not absolute. Remember that you're also telling just your opinion here.

So are you just believing that your opinions can judge all things, it´s a several misleading...

I don't believe my opinions can judge anything. However, I do know that if I want to make a track that most people like, I also have to listen to their opinions.

You say that I don't understand you but you don't understand me either. I guess it's a language barrier.

EDIT:

it's I see many find it had many objects... for me it´s not a problem... the way that many objcts are placen is actuyally reasonabel for this track.

Is this your opinion or is it the truth?

[Primeracer]

Of course what people say are their opinions, not objective truths. But if you want to make a track that most people like, then you need to treat those subjective opinions as truth. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying that there's only one right way of doing things. Ok you are not saying this, but summarely acting as if it was an absolute common reality anyway, unconsciously, but now it passes to become conscious by all i am stated until that moment. People are not based just on opinions, povs here, lets put something solid with this fact. So, by unwillinglyness some peoples stuff can indeed be badly evaluated.

No, I don't believe that. I know I'm just a human. Do you believe that your opinion here is 100% reasonable? Or is it possible that there's something more to the issue than just that?

Yes principally if opinions are accepcted as a rule like you said, but if in truth i talk about works being badly evaluated because of unwillinglyness in fact it cannot just to be classified as opinions, plus is reasonable to state against it, proving these question on opinions and criticism are taken on sophistry.

Ok, let me ask you this: What exactly do you think is a clean criteria for fair criticism?

Very simple, just to look at a track, forgeting the author for a while, forgeting about your own works, forgeting about the works of the highlightned trackmakers everyday gives and recieves blandishments for a little while, now go and consider this new track, give it a sincere try out if needed, not to see and starting 'i would do better' 'i would do this way here that way there' not starting by wanting helping after a badly done glance at the track. It´s However... it requires a people to want to do a commentary by this means i said.

If no one tells their opinions in the form of criticism, how can you expect anything to change?

Opinions, criticism are just an part that can or not help changing something to better, focusing on it can be considered an error, can eeaseely got out of something truly construtive.

Different people have different ways of saying things.

It have nothing with their ways of speaking, do you never read some of the many flattering comments of them? I could see much times on these comments something very different than was with myself. It has another spirit with other player's works they consider willingly. Plus are not flattery that i am wanting.[/quote]

Still, both egamad's and Dan's criticism was constructive.
It can't be. because... it was fastly considered a track filled with failures needing o be better by those almost if not summary conclusions about.

When you ask for comments, don't you want constructive critisicm?[/quote If in truth... indeed

Right, I know that, of course opinions are not absolute. Remember that you're also telling just your opinion here.

May be...

I don't believe my opinions can judge anything. However, I do know that if I want to make a track that most people like, I also have to listen to their opinions.

Explaining again, opinions are not a ruleship, indeed i may say it´s not a opinion of mine that IN FACT opinions are not a only way criteria for concluding about an track, opinions are easely driven by many paralel agents. on concluding about a track or anything else it is not a process to be considered just by opínion, it not truth

Is this your opinion or is it the truth?

It was not by an opinion i put that objects there, i know why cones for an example were placen there, it was a creation of Daniel de Carvalho not of anyone else. I know what i do!

Tuomo please one thing. I have uploaded a new version for the track, i want you please to check this one, compare with the older one.

[TuomoH]

Very simple, just to look at a track, forgeting the author for a while, forgeting about your own works, forgeting about the works of the highlightned trackmakers everyday gives and recieves blandishments for a little while

First, how do you know a certain commentator doesn't do this? Second, of course some people compare new trackmakers with established trackmakers but they just want to help you to become a better trackmaker so that the whole community benefits in the end.

not to see and starting 'i would do better' 'i would do this way here that way there' not starting by wanting helping after a badly done glance at the track. It´s However... it requires a people to want to do a commentary by this means i said.

Do I get you right, you don't think it's ok to say about little things that one thinks are wrong in a track?

Opinions, criticism are just an part that can or not help changing something to better, focusing on it can be considered an error, can eeaseely got out of something truly construtive.

True. You always need to stay truthful to yourself in the end. But if you don't want to change something that people comment, just forget about it then. Do it your way. But if you ask for comments, then you must be ready for all kinds of comments - or then say "comment but not on things x and y".

It was not by an opinion i put that objects there, i know why cones for an example were placen there, it was a creation of Daniel de Carvalho not of anyone else. I know what i do!

Ok, I understand. But it was Dan's opinion that he didn't think the road cones fit there. Nothing more. You just reacted strongly and that's how this whole discussion started.

Tuomo please one thing. I have uploaded a new version for the track, i want you please to check this one, compare with the older one.

I have downloaded both versions and will test them when it's my monthly ToM track testing.

[1nsane]

Time for a 3 am review thingie. I will do it based on the pictured provided in the thread...

The first thing that bounces into my mind is that this looks like a cool rallye track. I have always been a fan of rallyes in GR and this would be a nice addition to the list.
But there are some problems too. First, and the biggest problem, the track doesn't really know what it wants to be. Cactus, leaf-tree, palm-tree, bush. If one of these would be dropped, the problem wouldn't be that big, but now the different types clash together kinda badly. If all of the four had to be left in one map, maybe they could have been sectioned a bit into areas to make it more believeable.
Another problem comes with the red wall. It just doesn't work, especially where it is now. The peeps have gathered bunches of hay bales from the surroundings and... heheey someone could even afford one soft wall. One. It just really sticks out of the view.
Third one is, you guessed it, the cones. If there was just one in every corner or like how they are located now, they could be taken as a sort of checkpoint marker. Now the cones are a nice idea, but they just don't... work...
Fourth, maybe a minor one, what is that lamp doing in the middle of nowhere? In the lower right corner? Isn't it a waste of electricity when it is just left there to provide some lightning for animals? Or... Are the people afraid of some creature that lives in that corner and can't come out when there's light? (Like in Minecraft.. ) On the same bunch of totally random objects goes those concrete things in the middle. They have a bit weird placement and jump out of the other picture.

I like that you have put so many of those funky people on the map. It makes the track lively in a nice way. It's a shame that the game uses such flashy colors for them since it is now something that don't work too well on this track. This is obviously something you can't do much about.
The armco is a nice addition and works quite nicely. It is a good way of showing that those are the main spectator spots and the organizers have brought some railing to prevent the people from running to the road.
The h-map looks like an interesting one. It should provide some good challenge aligned with the tight roads. I guess it would be a fun one to drive.
The only problem on the driving side that I can see is the unfair difficulty that is added to some parts. Many corners are hidden behind a tree for a long while. Some hard walls and/or objects are behind bushes and trees making it impossible to know what is there. I assume there is a jump on the yellow line at the right hand side. That looks like way too tight spot to land on. If the booth and the walls were placed like that in the real life, the organizer would have been blamed from risking the drivers too much.

TLDR; It is a nice little track that should be a very fun one to drive on. It just has many graphical issues which may not be noticed while driving, but that are just overall not good.

[Primeracer]

First, how do you know a certain commentator doesn't do this? Second, of course some people compare new trackmakers with established trackmakers but they just want to help you to become a better trackmaker so that the whole community benefits in the end. I see that the whole community will benefit on being capable of do not just look at a non-highlighened trackamaster work and launch comments no more just because the stabilished trackmakers have a certain public accepted trackmaking way, but being capable of recieving any work with an willingly analysis that gives condition for speaking on a track like that one managing to considering it reaching a sufficient quality condition. So being capable of considering it good enough even if it are not the exact same thing as considered on estabilished trackmakers. It´s so simple.. so simple...

Do I get you right, you don't think it's ok to say about little things that one thinks are wrong in a track? I said actually this things are considered wrong on my track would not to be considered wrong after a person WANT to catch the point of that track, if they accept the thing on it´s basic differences and just want to have fun with it... i can sue it´s possible with this Agrestina made that way it was made. Simple man, simple, the way it was made actually doesn't needs to be considered perfect, but all the points of criticism are not suficiently reasonable, these points could not to be considered as failures like they were. I say it is quite reasonable these points launched as failures not being in fact failures! So they are attempting on helping me to do better with things HAVE quality enough to do not being considered as a fail. Did you see? It's possible to anyone see this good enough, even with their opinion like myself do in face of the tracks of yours. I sure you, i needed to exercise this too much but there are about 40 tracks and projects of myself ,when i have here more then a thousand of tracks made by many players.

True. You always need to stay truthful to yourself in the end. The thing is so so simple... that i believe can be understood by anyone not myself alone...

But if you don't want to change something that people comment, just forget about it then. Do it your way. But if you ask for comments, then you must be ready for all kinds of comments - or then say "comment but not on things x and y". It´s because... not everything that was cionsidered needed of changing are really a need, not a point of me just doesn't wanting to change something someone comment

Ok, I understand. But it was Dan's opinion that he didn't think the road cones fit there. Why of that opinion? You can sure me this opinion are not driven? I can sure this opinion could not to seeing these cone as something just 'useless' they even explained why... just spit and get to the next failure atribution, the reasons for that failure i've tried to reply on. Because i get so hardly beaten by that comment some just focused on myself having replied too hardly. But the comment were worth of it, opinion hides prejudice like this time. That comment started my point on the discussion. My reaction started yours. So your reaction at first aprouich was over my reaction not on the point i replied him.

I have downloaded both versions and will test them when it's my monthly ToM track testing.
There are now three choices for this same track, you wil see me trying on getting to the point considered as better on the new one, that had a WS 120 and become too much different on some features from original had. A version WS 110 was released before any commenting by myself in a case of someone want some more room, but not killing the original idea.

[Thunderstrucker]

Can you stop posting in blue?
It's making my eyes burn...
Sorry for the offtopic, but I needed to say this.

[Primeracer]

Seemed really a review. I will ask you to please check the track ingame please sir.

The first thing that bounces into my mind is that this looks like a cool rallye track. I have always been a fan of rallyes in GR and this would be a nice addition to the list.nteresting the thinking, considering it would be a good addition to your list of rally tracks... I

But there are some problems too. First, and the biggest problem, the track doesn't really know what it wants to be. Cactus, leaf-tree, palm-tree, bush. It only knows one thing... that is definites the presence of deciduous, palm trees, schurub/bushes and cactus (mandacarus) like it´s well explained on the track presentation, it's an Agreste bioma based track, so Agrest is a bioma don't know were to do so. If i remove it's diversity it will go like a forest, or a highland, or grasslands or a desert bioma. Actually it was nothing of this, it's was designed to represent a unique semi-arid landscape that is Agreste only found in Brazil.If one of these would be dropped, the problem wouldn't be that big, but now the different types clash together kinda badly. If all of the four had to be left in one map, maybe they could have been sectioned a bit into areas to make it more believeable.

Take a look at these images

This is a semi-arid vegetation.

Brazilian semi-arid Agreste and Sertão landscapes. There are bushes, cactus, deciduous and more.

Agreste and Sertão brazilian semi-arid biomas scenarym, i trying this on my track.

Another problem comes with the red wall. It just doesn't work, especially where it is now. The peeps have gathered bunches of hay bales from the surroundings and... heheey someone could even afford one soft wall.
heheh ok ok... interesting. Makes sense man. Well it remains as contextually incoherent isolated there, but i wanted to that red wall to working like an adversitment that could be seen on some micro tv footage out there for the track, i could've placen more of these soft walls tough? I don't know, or even placing all walls just these type? It would get too much out of standards, i have a a certain attention on this. But... YES! i will try replacing all that hay bales and see what i got with these red walls

Third one is, you guessed it, the cones. If there was just one in every corner or like how they are located now, they could be taken as a sort of checkpoint marker. Yes can really work like checkpoints Now the cones are a nice idea, but they just don't... work... There are some were place out of the road marking area for the peoples expectating, some marks road area for the track.. indeed it makes this very tight that way
Fourth, maybe a minor one, what is that lamp doing in the middle of nowhere? lol

Isn't it a waste of electricity when it is just left there to provide some lightning for animals? Welll the track is't absolutely alone in the world there are much more things around the area, if you look there are access patches there... but ok appeared strange that light there. On the same bunch of totally random objects goes those concrete things in the middle. They have a bit weird placement and jump out of the other picture. Ok, but not random, area also demarking, i may recognize as not being an good option though.

I like that you have put so many of those funky people on the map. It makes the track lively in a nice way. It's a shame that the game uses such flashy colors for them since it is now something that don't work too well on this track. This is obviously something you can't do much about. Yes i see that that people were considered part of the too many objects issue

The armco is a nice addition and works quite nicely. It is a good way of showing that those are the main spectator spots and the organizers have brought some railing to prevent the people from running to the road. EXACTLY, you got the point for it.
The h-map looks like an interesting one. It should provide some good challenge aligned with the tight roads. I guess it would be a fun one to drive.
The only problem on the driving side that I can see is the unfair difficulty that is added to some parts. It´s true i'd really intentionally added difficulty to the track, i it was really designed to be hard but not placing trees, the trees are sidind he reoad so the pov bring a little of momentary difficult, that will change as you learn the track, a piece of challeng though...
I assume there is a jump on the yellow line at the right hand side. That looks like way too tight spot to land on. Yes two yellow lines are not so hard jumps that just requires you entering correctly there, a little tricky but is interesting.

If the booth and the walls were placed like that in the real life, the organizer would have been blamed from risking the drivers too much. Ingame you can see that jump on at there are not so 'strong' because you just come out of an slow turn. Give it a try

TLDR; It is a nice little track that should be a very fun one to drive on. It just has many graphical issues which may not be noticed while driving, but that are just overall not good.Unfotunately the most brilliant part was the lmap, but ingame it's quality doesn't apper so clearly

[TuomoH]

Ok, I understand. But it was Dan's opinion that he didn't think the road cones fit there.

Why of that opinion? You can sure me this opinion are not driven?

Driven by what? When you released the track the road cones had been available for just one week - there certainly isn't a standard way of using them in the community yet.

My reaction started yours. So your reaction at first aprouich was over my reaction not on the point i replied him.

Yes, that's why I started it. The whole reason for our discussion is that you seemed to get unnecessarily angry about someone's comments with all those 's for instance. I basically just said take it easy but then you started ranting about how I favor standardism etc. which was even more uncalled for. Just chill with your replies. If you would've replied to Dan like you now replied to 1nsane everyone would be happy.

[Primeracer]

1nsane really commented the track, even that way i've replied showing some things can be considered, i expect it would not bypassed like before. His comment didn't get on me, haq one get on myself. That many shaking head smilies was a experession on what was definetely unfortunate and annoyed me the same way you pick milk and shaking it, you got butter. So as you're an GR staff, you come to exercise your function... the guys seemed angry, so let it be supressed... You'd just focused on the form i'd replied, but that form his comment was WORTH off. Do you cannot see this... but it was a qualified absurd. I stoping putting not because the absurd are less but you don't want to see the shaking head. I had already explained him, and you why.. useless though. Why did me recieved 1nsane commenting? Some self unconscious, unwillinglyness filled trackmakers said i cannot accept criticism. So what happened with this supposed problem of mine with 1nsane?

Continue you to go by what you saying that are just opinions, go on with your 'defautages' refuting, and refuting... so... sorry. Do you were so impressed with them, i stoped so, but not why things went a right way of course. So If i did get annoy8ed on this was not because of an stone hearted position like your replies shows me.

I will have to go on with on my work, my name is Daniel de Carvalho, not Tuomo, or Dan Haq, my work WILL HAVE TO be considered suffcient when in fact had A GIVEN and FREE sufficient quality level! Learning how to don't go and spit sumarily groundless mistakes imputting on others works. You will have to be capable of considering a work on it's quality even if being different of your contradictory 'defautatas'. So i have a task about getting better on my trackmaking but by what REALLY can make it better, and not by just accepting by instance stupid analysis as principle of changings just because of your way contradictory concepts on trackmaking.

[Martyn]

Can I just say, this 'debate' has done a good job in making your track well known

and also, I think that the main problem here is mis-understanding, as can always happen when people discuss somethin in a language that isn't their own

[1nsane]

I gave the track a go, and I have to say that in this case the picture provided in the thread actually makes it look worse than it really is. When driving with a big screen, there wasn't that much of over-colouring problem.

Just as I guessed, the H-map was a fun one. Accompanied with the thightness of the track it made a nice challenge.

And indeed, the jumps weren't high, so I take back the part of those jump areas being unfairly hard. They just require precision but don't really cause much of problem.

If you want to leave the lamp there, make some clearer paths on the area, maybe... Like around that house. That's one thing that I forgot to say yesterday. Those paths are pretty nice, mostly since there's so many of them, just like there should be in forests or... agreste. By adding some paths around the light, the light would have a better purpose in being there.

And yeah, I checked some more pictures and there indeed are areas with this many different types of trees and foliage. I just tend to combine the leaf tree with a birch, so it felt a bit strange at first to see this kind of a combination in GR. The different types didn't jump out too much while actually driving, so there's no problem here.

If you want to leave some red walls in the area as ads, like you had thought of it, maybe replace a few of the haybales with them. Just don't change all of them or they won't work too well. Just a few to balance the picture a little.

I still think the concrete posts in the middle don't work. Maybe they could be moved closer to the road and maybe one or two could be added there..? Or armcos here too..?

The visibility wasn't much of an issue either while actually driving. I guess this is another issue that just got exaggerated by the small image.

(I know, this time the text is a bit jumpy, I'm trying the track at the same time. ) Wow, I really like the hairpin and the esses before the second jump. Those parts just really work very well.

Yep, it is a very nice track, it just needs those little fixes: paths around the light, a few more or soft walls, replace those concrete posts. And you could maybe even bring some of the trees closer to the road just for that little extra bit of intimidation. Not to make the track harder, but in the straight parts etc, just a bit closer.

[Primeracer]

Can I just say, this 'debate' has done a good job in making your track well known
I may say that... this was accidetal. It was not propositally architected by me like 'now i will take their attentioon on myself' not really.


and also, I think that the main problem here is mis-understanding, as can always happen when people discuss somethin in a language that isn't their own May be a little on this point sir...