My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

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VelroX12
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My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by VelroX12 »

the point was not to run over people but to jump over them, which with the cars in the pack, you could do so so theres no reason to delete it and i did read rules, people think it should be put back on
@edit by Paw
Attachment deleted. See my reply below for details.
Last edited by VelroX12 on Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Paw
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by Paw »

Welcome on the forums!
It's nice that you post tracks, but I've had to delete it, as we don't allow here tracks, which are made to massacre people on purpose. This includes jumping over stands or having people objects on the road, where cars drive.

Also, next time you would post track/car, please provide screenshot and required tags. More info about this here.
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by SammieVL »

Paw wrote:Welcome on the forums!
It's nice that you post tracks, but I've had to delete it, as we don't allow here tracks, which are made to massacre people on purpose. This includes jumping over stands or having people objects on the road, where cars drive.

Also, next time you would post track/car, please provide screenshot and required tags. More info about this here.
Umm... did you allow genetleman's Scared X (or how it was called) then?
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by ACM »

Paw, you can't be serious.

Never before have I heard of such a rule be made in that context, on the old track database nor on RSC, and even the official forum rules here states nothing about how track objects should be placed.

It doesn't even make sense in the context of the game itself. There's very clearly blood programmed into the game which was designed to spew from people and stands any time a car hits them. Why would it deliberately be put into the game if it's going to be forbidden on the forums.
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by Lukeno94 »

ACM, don't argue, we had a discussion where we unanimously decided that this sort of track is forbidden. The point is not the blood, but the fact there's a fair intention that you will hit the stands and drive over the people. It should not need stating, it's common sense and good taste not to do this sort of thing. Stands/people should ONLY be used as jump objects if the majority of cars can clear them WITHOUT hitting them.

Also, this thread should've had a far more sensible title at first.
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by Hiken17 »

i've never heard that rule too, but anyway, you should put a name to the track, not My awesome track where you try to jump over stands ;) and you shoul put tags, for ex: [stc] street circuit
so read the rules before posting
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by Trigger Happy »

ACM wrote:Paw, you can't be serious.

Never before have I heard of such a rule be made in that context, on the old track database nor on RSC, and even the official forum rules here states nothing about how track objects should be placed.

It doesn't even make sense in the context of the game itself. There's very clearly blood programmed into the game which was designed to spew from people and stands any time a car hits them. Why would it deliberately be put into the game if it's going to be forbidden on the forums.
Paw says true, in the mods team we decided not to allow tracks, which are undoubtedly created directly with intention of a massacre by the cars driving a place with high regularity ''lap after lap'' (AIs following AI line, player following layout to drive by checkpoint) like driving though crowd or over spectators on stand.

But if e.g. trackmaker make a crowd next to a bend, where a car can accidentally fly into them or driver can start to simply turn from intentioned course and start to behave like maniac, it's OK. In first case the danger for spectators is always part of real racing (and was mainly in past), so if they are in dangerous spot it's simply risk, which they took by standing there like in real. In second case, the trackmaker is not responsible for driver's using the track by other way than it was supposed. So if track includes just a hypothetical option of ''killing spectators'', it's OK. If it's purpose of the track, then not OK.

And about rules, you're kinda wrong about RSC and current rules. I remember well, that several tracks were there deleted for being abusive (e.g. Wouter's track with racing in the middle of massacre scene of crashed fast train). Similarly here is generally stated in forum rules, that abusive things are not allowed. So the our decision to not allow these massacre tracks is not new rule (it's just interpretation and application of already existing rule) and even it's not new way of application of the rule.

That's the summary of the problem in common.

@ Luke: ACM may argue, if he feels reason to do so. :really:
Last edited by Trigger Happy on Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:04 am, edited 5 times in total.
Reason: reason: mainly gramm. corrections
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by andrew2209 »

Trigger Happy wrote:
ACM wrote:Paw, you can't be serious.

Never before have I heard of such a rule be made in that context, on the old track database nor on RSC, and even the official forum rules here states nothing about how track objects should be placed.

It doesn't even make sense in the context of the game itself. There's very clearly blood programmed into the game which was designed to spew from people and stands any time a car hits them. Why would it deliberately be put into the game if it's going to be forbidden on the forums.
Paw says true, in the mods team we decided not to allow tracks, which are undoubtedly created directly with intention of a massacre by the cars driving a place with high regularity ''lap after lap'' (AIs following AI line, player following layout to drive by checkpoint) like driving though crowd or over spectators on stand.

But if e.g. trackmaker make a crowd next to a bend, where a car can accidentally fly into them or driver can start to simply turn from intentioned course and start to behave like maniac, it's OK. In first case the danger for spectators is always part of real racing (and was mainly in past), so if they are in dangerous spot it's simply risk, which they took by standing there like in real. In second case, the trackmaker is not responsible for driver's using the track by other way than it was supposed. So if track includes just a hypothetical option of ''killing spectators'', it's OK. If it's purpose of the track, then not OK.

And about rules, you're kinda wrong about RSC and current rules. I remember well, that several tracks were there deleted for being abusive (e.g. Wouter's track with racing in the middle of massacre scene of crashed fast train). Similarly here is generally stated in forum rules, that abusive things are not allowed. So the our decision to not allow these massacre tracks is not new rule (it's just interpretation and application of already existing rule) and even it's not new way of application of the rule.

That's the summary of the problem in common.

@ Luke: ACM may argue, if he feels reason to do so. :really:
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by ACM »

Filing this as general abusing behaviour under Users is very vague. I would never of though that to mean 'don't make tracks where you drive over people'. A statement like that should really require a clear, separate rule under Attachments.

Either way I think it's ridiculous. I don't buy the idea that it's common sense. We are not talking about deliberately drawing explicit imagery on the land map. All this is is taking objects that are preprogrammed into the game to behave in a certain way, and manipulating them in the most simplest way possible. Literally anyone can do this in less than a minute with the track editor. I also don't give a lick about what context it's in. If it's in the game, you know people are going to do it. If running over stands or crashing into people is a real possibility, and you make it possible to manipulate these objects with a track editor, you know people are going to do it. Similarly, if you make a a game where you can very possibly steal cars, run over pedestrians and kill hookers, you know people are going to do it.

Above all though, I just want to know who out of all of this is genuinely being offended. Anyone who's old enough to look on the internet for tracks where you drive over stands is old enough to have watched an action or a horror flick before and know what blood is. The 'gore' in GeneRally isn't even that existent and is just an effect that turns people red, they don't actually die. You might argue that no one would want to drive a track like this, but there are so many other bad tracks that get posted which no one would want to drive, and that's fine. If a track is really bad, then people can decide for themselves not to download it, it's not a reason to remove it completely. If you really don't want to drive a track where you drive into people, then good lord, don't download it.
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by VelroX12 »

Trigger Happy wrote:
ACM wrote:Paw, you can't be serious.

Never before have I heard of such a rule be made in that context, on the old track database nor on RSC, and even the official forum rules here states nothing about how track objects should be placed.

It doesn't even make sense in the context of the game itself. There's very clearly blood programmed into the game which was designed to spew from people and stands any time a car hits them. Why would it deliberately be put into the game if it's going to be forbidden on the forums.
Paw says true, in the mods team we decided not to allow tracks, which are undoubtedly created directly with intention of a massacre by the cars driving a place with high regularity ''lap after lap'' (AIs following AI line, player following layout to drive by checkpoint) like driving though crowd or over spectators on stand.

But if e.g. trackmaker make a crowd next to a bend, where a car can accidentally fly into them or driver can start to simply turn from intentioned course and start to behave like maniac, it's OK. In first case the danger for spectators is always part of real racing (and was mainly in past), so if they are in dangerous spot it's simply risk, which they took by standing there like in real. In second case, the trackmaker is not responsible for driver's using the track by other way than it was supposed. So if track includes just a hypothetical option of ''killing spectators'', it's OK. If it's purpose of the track, then not OK.

And about rules, you're kinda wrong about RSC and current rules. I remember well, that several tracks were there deleted for being abusive (e.g. Wouter's track with racing in the middle of massacre scene of crashed fast train). Similarly here is generally stated in forum rules, that abusive things are not allowed. So the our decision to not allow these massacre tracks is not new rule (it's just interpretation and application of already existing rule) and even it's not new way of application of the rule.

That's the summary of the problem in common.

@ Luke: ACM may argue, if he feels reason to do so. :really:
btw the check points are BEHIND the stands so you dont have to jump over them, just saying :doh:
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by egamad »

I have to agree with ACM here. I know that you staff have to take a bit biased stand towards potentially abusive material, but seriously, this one is a bit ridiculous from my point of view. Actually, I believe you might be violating the freedom of artistic expression. Of course you cannot express yourself on account of someone else's good name or religion or other subjects that might be insulting or offensive towards others, but running over some ingame objects is far from these things. Of course, at the end of the day it's your decision what to allow on forums, but I sincerely believe you could let this one slip with no consequences whatsoever. :2c:
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by Alex »

VelroX12 wrote:[...with the cars in the pack,...]
Did you have permission to upload those? :hide:
But anyway, like many other people said, where is the rule about object placement? Link or it didn't happen. I surely don't remember anything similar happening to Genetlemans' Scared X which had similar intentions as Velroxs' track.
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by Martyn »

IMO if you don't like it, don't download it.
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by Trigger Happy »

ACM wrote:Filing this as general abusing behaviour under Users is very vague. I would never of though that to mean 'don't make tracks where you drive over people'. A statement like that should really require a clear, separate rule under Attachments.
It's very extensive interpretation, I admit that it may be precised in rules in future, especially in time of turning to official forum. On the other hand texts like forum rules cannot be too casuistic, otherwise they would be even more complex and confusing than they are.
ACM wrote:Either way I think it's ridiculous. I don't buy the idea that it's common sense. We are not talking about deliberately drawing explicit imagery on the land map.
No, we're taking about explicit deliberate asking or forcing player to hurt/kill people as one of ''goals of the mission'' (or even asking to find pleasure in it).
ACM wrote:All this is is taking objects that are preprogrammed into the game to behave in a certain way, and manipulating them in the most simplest way possible. Literally anyone can do this in less than a minute with the track editor. I also don't give a lick about what context it's in.
You're saying, that if a game has a hypothetical possibility to manipulate objects in a certain way, we have to accept every situation, how author of track will use. But it's not true - you can make nasty things even with the current objects (like draw obscene things) and it's not allowed too and never was allowed even on RSC. Similarly in reality you have a thing, which hypothetically allows you to hurt people or damage property - it doesn't mean, that just because existence of the thing and possibility of the behaviour its using is unlimited and you're automatically allowed to do so.
ACM wrote:If it's in the game, you know people are going to do it. If running over stands or crashing into people is a real possibility, and you make it possible to manipulate these objects with a track editor, you know people are going to do it.
Difference is, if the object is made for the purpose or no. The stands or people or pit guys include the blood directly from the reason to warn you, that you're hurting somebody and you should not do it, because the objects (who imitates human beings) are not primarily created to be target of some hits - it's not reason, why Räbinäs or James/Markku added them to the game.
ACM wrote:Above all though, I just want to know who out of all of this is genuinely being offended. Anyone who's old enough to look on the internet for tracks where you drive over stands is old enough to have watched an action or a horror flick before and know what blood is. The 'gore' in GeneRally isn't even that existent and is just an effect that turns people red, they don't actually die.
It's not just about question of blood or not. Other example can be when somebody made a track consisting of a jump and two office blocks against them and by the jump you could ride and fly against them to hit them, it was deleted from RSC too no matter that there was actually no blood, but simply because it was abusive/offensive. And according collective decision of the mods a track, which's major/only purpose is to create environment/situation, when player will be asked or forced to hurt/kill people as ''goal of the mission'' or even asked to find pleasure in, it is not allowed, especially in relation of fact, that this is family-friendly forum.

VelroX12 wrote:btw the check points are BEHIND the stands so you dont have to jump over them, just saying :doh:
I'm not sure, why you're primarily quoting my post, I was talking just about general questions (same for whole this post), which were behind the individual decision.

egamad wrote:... Actually, I believe you might be violating the freedom of artistic expression. ...
I very agree, that artistic expression has borders somewhere else than normal situations, but (as I told) ''explicit deliberate asking or forcing player to hurt/kill people as one of ''goals of the mission'' (or even asking to find pleasure in it)'' is nothing to do with freedoms in art.
egamad wrote:Of course you cannot express yourself on account of someone else's good name or religion or other subjects that might be insulting or offensive towards others, but running over some ingame objects is far from these things.
That's reason, why it ended just by deleting the problematic file and kind explanation by moderator, why similar thing is not welcomed. Abusing in questions about membership of e.g. religion, sexual orientation or nationality would result in remarkably harsher acting of member of moderator team towards the offender. ;)

Alex wrote:But anyway, like many other people said, where is the rule about object placement? Link or it didn't happen.
Art. 1 of forum rules. Look to first part of this reply for details.
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by The MNZ »

I am more confused than a blind man in a shooting. Paw, could you post here a print of the accusation?
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by VelroX12 »

Im pretty much speaking for everyone here, we want to be able to download this
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by Lukeno94 »

That is not yours, as the author's, decision to make, and you can't say that.
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by 1nsane »

I'd say that the case falls in the same region as to why you aren't allowed to, for example, use foul language here. This place is meant to be friendly for younger people, children. If you look at pretty much any game that shows (excessive) amount of blood, they are rated as 15+. Killing of some robots and stuff is rated as 12+. Some people who come here are actually younger than even 12. To make sure no smart pants comes here and says "welp, you can still drive over some of spectators by accident in this game, so the game should be k18 lol", take a look at WRC rally evolved and Richard Burns Rally. In these games you can drive over people by accident if you run out of the track. In both cases the spectators aren't on the road, so that is not the intention of the game, and the games get a rating of 3+. This is the rating which pretty much every GR track would get.
In your tracks' case, it is very likely to hit the spectators. If you want to compare this with other driving games, you could take a look at, for example, Motorstorm Apocalypse, or how about Carmageddon. Apocalypse has a rating of 15+, Carmageddon had 18+. So 15+ would very likely be the rating this track would get, which is a no no for the forums.

Besides, there was a huge discussion in the RSC days, about a track where you could drive over animals that were drawn on the road and it was judged tasteless. This could be rated as worse than that.

As a conclusion it would be better if you just let it be. If you really want people to get it, and if people really want to get it, create a webpage where you put your tracks and then a link your signature bar (obviously not advertising the link by putting "GORE AND BLOOD HERE". ). If people really, really want them, they can get them there. The mods have unanimously(i guess) agreed that this kind of material isn't good for the forums, and that is the final verdict for the case.
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by nielske »

Before I tell you my opinion, I have to say I didn't see the track, and I'm going off the descriptions of it that have been made in this thread.

I totally agree with Trigger Happy's arguments. Plus, Alex, rules are usually the result of practical problems, so the fact that there's no specific rule forbidding this track being posted here, does not mean that no-one can make that decision. Hell, the UK doesn't have a (codified) constitution; it's largely made up of the outcomes of court cases. And those court judgements are based on extensions of existing law, previous treaties, statutes and agreements, and I suppose some of the judge's morals and beliefs. The GR community actually has, as has been illustrated, a history of not accepting these types of tracks on the forums or in the track database, so this decision is at least to be expected.

It also does not violate anyone's freedom to express themselves, artistically. The creator can put it online wherever it is allowed. No-one's arresting him or prosecuting him. The moderating team simply believes this isn't the place for these types of things.

Do I care if the track were posted, personally? Hell no. Would anyone be particularly offended by it? Maybe. I suppose most would simply not download it. Are the moderators necessarily offended by it? Certainly not; they may well be okay with it on a personal level. Their forum rules weren't written to reflect their personal views, however, but rather to provide a framework which they regard as a solid basis to build an all-ages community upon. Can you get your murder-thrills elsewhere? Sure. But the moderators simply don't want it here, and I find that an understandable decision, whether I agree with it or not.
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by ACM »

If this rule is so necessary then I must one again ask this question because it still hasn't been answered. Who here is genuinely being offended by a red spray effect programmed into the game, or a track maker's intentions? Give me names, and answer this in a practical manner. Who is this hypothetical 'offended' person that this rule is designed to protect? You all keep saying this is offensive; to whom I ask though? The track maker here more than likely didn't make this to offend anyone. In fact, any kid or amateur track maker can very possibly just see the stand object and see its potential use to make an Evel Knievel style track, just because they though it would be hearted fun, without ever having the intention to offend anyone. So please answer me this, because otherwise this just seems to me like something which in in all reality a non-issue.
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by Martyn »

As has been mentioned above, if it is not to someones taste then there is no obligation to download it. I feel the best solution (again as allready mentioned) is for VelroX12 to put it on a personal site and linke to the site in his signature
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by Lukeno94 »

Not so much the members, but any parents or such who happen to walk in and see the blood spurting out could cause issues. Making an Evel Knievel style track would be OK as long as the majority of cars would easily clear the stands, as clearly isn't the case with this one. I highly doubt he made it to offended anyone, but it's simply bad taste. You wouldn't be happy if I made a track with an office block and told you the aim was to fly an aeroplane on it, or if I drew genitalia all over the place, or the aforementioned animals on the track where you got points for hitting them.

Rules are rules, you follow them whether or not you agree with them.
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by VelroX12 »

Lukeno94 wrote:Not so much the members, but any parents or such who happen to walk in and see the blood spurting out could cause issues. Making an Evel Knievel style track would be OK as long as the majority of cars would easily clear the stands, as clearly isn't the case with this one. I highly doubt he made it to offended anyone, but it's simply bad taste. You wouldn't be happy if I made a track with an office block and told you the aim was to fly an aeroplane on it, or if I drew genitalia all over the place, or the aforementioned animals on the track where you got points for hitting them.

Rules are rules, you follow them whether or not you agree with them.
what if i made it to where u jumped over something other than stands?
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by Trigger Happy »

I should be completely OK ;)
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Re: My awesome track where you try to jump over stands.

Post by VelroX12 »

Trigger Happy wrote:I should be completely OK ;)
i forgot to ask how about if those things were boats?
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