[oth] [roa] Child's Play

[TuomoH]

Children just got a new F1 Car Racing Set and decided to set it up to have a nice race on the children's room floor.

Track designed for Formula.

As usual, comments and critisicm welcome.

[cocney]

It is very strange for me.
Nice to see new inovation and this is very interesting.
Nice simple track and very good job in paint!
Great job again .

[PacmanOwnage]

I can see what's been done, and achieved here......


...But, I can't help but thinking if someone without Tuomohs reputation released this, it'd had some ordinary "check out the tutorial section" comments.

I mean, to drive on, it's rather tame, and looks... are... non-existant. I appreciate the style and attempt to recreate it, and bring something new to Generally, but at the end of the day, it's fallen flat because when genuinly racing on it, you don't "get" what it's meant to be, instead, you have an average layout with poor visuals.

Sorry, but this one hasn't quite worked for me

[Lukeno94]

I would agree, IF you simply looked at the road surface itself. Looking at its surroundings makes it obvious it's a higher-quality track.

Also, you can tell from the name that it is deliberately childish and simple, and it does look like some stereotypical child's playtrack.

[Bouncebackability]

I personally dont think it looks like a childs playtrack, more bright block colours, less dithering, and simpler shapes would justify it to me. The white line doesnt work well for me either.

IMo, this is a good example of a childs race mat... http://zenseeker.net/Kid/RoadRugs/Recta ... ds+Rug.jpg

[Trigger Happy]

I like it, I take it as also child-painted/coloured.

BTW the layout really isn't miracle, but the bumpy hmap helps a bit.

So in sum I enjoy this new piece to my collection of micro-machine (etc) style tracks.

[TuomoH]

Thanks a lot for the replies.

Sorry, but this one hasn't quite worked for me

I understand your sentiment and knew from the beginning it wouldn't work for everyone. Just trying to come up with new concepts to keep it interesting for myself. For my part, I succeeded in what I was trying to do and thanks to the hmap I think it's a fun track for racing with the AI.

I personally dont think it looks like a childs playtrack, more bright block colours, less dithering, and simpler shapes would justify it to me. The white line doesnt work well for me either.

IMo, this is a good example of a childs race mat... http://zenseeker.net/Kid/RoadRugs/Recta ... ds+Rug.jpg

It's not a race mat per se, even though it has characteristics of one. It's more of a miniature terrain made by big brother that children got hold of and made their own track on top of it. But I get you too.

Btw, it did have block colors and less dithering in the beginning but as my method involves using chance in my work, when I got the dithering when converting the image (tried different methods) I liked this look the most and decided to use it as base.

Other comments?

[SammieVL]

...But, I can't help but thinking if someone without Tuomohs reputation released this, it'd had some ordinary "check out the tutorial section" comments.

That is just my problem. Besides for the funny HMap objects the track looks quite crappy, even worser than my work...

I dont get it Tuomo: you get a trillion votes in ToM and such for making a random track with an LMap screenshot of Word with a ton of random objects placed in it. If i would do something like it i'd get weird comments like "wtf is this, its damn ugly!".

And this is like another example - like a bit of misusing your powers as a trackmaster.

It doesn't mean that when you release a track it is great because you have a logo under your avatar - you should release QUALITY tracks.

[Von Mantov]

I think that the experiments are very useful ... and this track ... such as the name suggests it does not claim to be a perfect result but a creation made ​​by children playing in their bedroom ...so i think it's funny to drive here it's a great idea!..
You have a lot of imagination and I'll support for these innovations ..
one note ...
the only thing I would do
is to fix the box kit who is out from the childs creations..

[TuomoH]

Ok, here's a tl;dr reply. Don't read it as a rant since it's not meant to be one. It's more of an essay of what I think about trackmaking and where I stand.

I know that I've gotten to the position where people look at my tracks differently than beginners' tracks. However, it's like that in every walk of life. You have to prove to the masses that you can master the rules of let's say trackmaking (or poetry, or composing music) and only after that you can start breaking those rules. It's the way to progress to a new level.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily so for everyone. Of course beginners can make cool new stuff as well, be innovative. However, often the case is that they're not really sure what they're doing. For that, my advice is first to master the basics, then use that knowledge to make even more weird things.

Sadly people are often thinking inside the box when commenting here, non-standard trackmaking often gets unnecessary criticism just for being non-standard. I hope that by showing out-of-the-box methods and designs I can change the situation a bit, open people's eyes that there are more than one way of doing things.

Btw, I know I should comment more often on people's tracks, I do it way too little. I just don't have much time for that. But if people make different tracks that also work in my mind (it's not enough to do things differently just to do them differently, it has to work as well), I give them my ToM votes.

As I said, one shouldn't do things differently just to do them differently. I've developed a style of my own which is for the most part way off the mainstream. I haven't done that consciously, it's been a part of my development as a trackmaker artist. Yes, I believe this is an art form - that may explain some of my choices in the past, the present and the future. It's been a process where I try to keep things interesting to myself and fortunately it has worked. Now it's been almost 10 years since I released my first track and after 178 released tracks I've still got enthusiasm and new ideas, I'm definitely not going to stop.

One thing I've said over and over again to different people is that one should always make things for himself, not for others. I'm just practising what I preach. If I had listened to what people want I wouldn't have developed my often weird style but made more standard tracks and likely stopped without new ideas. I have seen it often in this community - people make great tracks after great tracks but somehow only perfect their one style, then stop making tracks and disappear. I've kept reinventing myself and going to new directions, in the process changing my initial style completely. And as I said, I've still got some new ideas.

Wouter, you mention the word "random". It may look like that to you. However, every object placement has been thought out, maybe not on object-by-object level but in small groups at the largest. It's been part of my process, I like to plant objects as if they're random but that's just how nature is, random.

I've often gotten comments with my more weird tracks that I'm getting good comments just because it's my track. Partly that's true. However, my more weird tracks are usually not as popular as they seem. They are too weird for the big crowd. For instance, this track. As of this writing, I've gotten 7 comments for 6 downloads, that's quite a ratio, eh? For 100 or so thread views it's not much download-wise. And there's quite some criticism as well, which I understand as I've already said. But I've achieved with this track what I needed to achieve, for me it's up to the standard - my own standard set by myself.

Every track I release is up to the standard I set to myself. When I look back at my career, I can stand behind almost every track, the only ones that in retrospect I feel I shouldn't have released are THVilla (2002) and Qer (2005). In other words, I haven't released IMHO a bad track in over 7 years. Not all of them are masterpieces, that's for sure, but masterpieces are hard to come by at any art form anyway.

Wouter, you say I'm misusing my powers as a trackmaster. But from where I stand it doesn't seem that way. I'm not releasing bad tracks, at least I don't think so. I'm not releasing tracks to get praise. Of course it feels good when people like my tracks but that's not my motivation. IMHO I would be misusing my powers as a trackmaster if I released tracks that I knew from the beginning would appeal to masses even though it's not what I wanted to do - if my heart wasn't in it. I'm not saying that releasing tracks that appeal to masses is necessarily a bad thing. For instance, Maciej1 has made a great career, he's excellent in what he's doing. It's just not a thing for me.

It doesn't mean that when you release a track it is great because you have a logo under your avatar - you should release QUALITY tracks.

Of course it doesn't mean that. For the latter part you have to realize that quality (as beauty) is in the eye of the beholder.

So there you have it, my not just about this track but trackmaking in general.

Oh, and thanks for your comment, mantov

[Von Mantov]

You're right ... Tuomoh
I also think that after 10 years we should open new ways of design ... I am a novice because I knew this world three months ago .. but downloading hundreds of tracks I noticed some standardization ...
this works? then everything must be done this way ...
like good old Ivo taught me ... the streets of the change are the most difficult ... and people will go against you ... may be that one day people will understand ..i'm with you mate!

[Martyn]

[Devil's Advocate]No matter how good they are, from time to time every artist, be it visual art, music or even written art produces a piece that is far below the quality of others they make. How is it possible to learn more without making these mistakes. This is why we should NEVER call a track crappy if a lot of work has gone into it, think of it as a learning curve.[/Devil's Advocate]

Back to being Martyn...

I feel this track has the potential to be a ToY contender, but it is missing something, something I cannot put my finger on, and without that something I feel it is only an average track

[Areen]

http://zenseeker.net/Kid/RoadRugs/Recta ... ds+Rug.jpg

Great idea BBA! I'll do track in this style in next few days

[Trigger Happy]

...But, I can't help but thinking if someone without Tuomohs reputation released this, it'd had some ordinary "check out the tutorial section" comments.

That is just my problem. Besides for the funny HMap objects the track looks quite crappy, even worser than my work...

I'm quite surprised (negatively) by your reaction on this track, it actually reminds me a lot the yours and everything what I like at them.

I dont get it Tuomo: you get a trillion votes in ToM and such for making a random track with an LMap screenshot of Word with a ton of random objects placed in it. If i would do something like it i'd get weird comments like "wtf is this, its damn ugly!

You actually made a such a track with a trivial almost mono-coloured ground and load of rather random objects placed on it - a day or two ago, don't you remember? I haven't seen anybody saying "wtf is this, its damn ugly!'', but bunch of people having fun - because its core nature or core idea, so your opinion/argument about it seems to be incorrect, you don't need a master rank bellow avatar for receiving a recognition for your efforts behind borders of usual.

[TuomoH]

Thanks, guys.

No matter how good they are, from time to time every artist, be it visual art, music or even written art produces a piece that is far below the quality of others they make. How is it possible to learn more without making these mistakes.

I agree with you but not 100% - some artists who make very few works may create only quality works. Furthermore, I'd take that "far" away from "far below the quality". And I'm not trying to say I'm one of them who only create quality works. As I said, I've also made something I now consider bad, and many tracks that are just average.

I feel this track has the potential to be a ToY contender, but it is missing something, something I cannot put my finger on, and without that something I feel it is only an average track

Are you sure you don't mean ToM contender? I don't get how a track that has potential to be a ToY contender but is missing something is just an average track. I think even every ToM contender in my book is above average.

Still something else?

[SammieVL]

You actually made a such a track with a trivial almost mono-coloured ground and load of rather random objects placed on it - a day or two ago, don't you remember? I haven't seen anybody saying "wtf is this, its damn ugly!'', but bunch of people having fun

My idea behind "Road Cone Splosion" was to have a challenge. It didn't have anything random besides the road cones. Tuomo didn't even make this average. The LMap looks indeed like something that a child could do, but really? He is a trackmaster! I mean, the track with the parking garage looked nice, had a good structure and was just great. But this... its just alot different from the normal tracks and it looks to me as if Tuomo just put "its like if a child made it" in the description as an excuse to making a bad track.

You see, i like abstract tracks - i loved Egamad's MiMi, but Tuomo just (about Word) made a random LMap, put a few objects in them and called it a track. It was just a round track around a pitcrew and some objects which were very crappily placed. It didn't have any challenge or anything. I'm sorry if i offended anyone, even maybe myself but i don't think tracks like that or this should win ToMs or atleast end up high, instead, tracks like that eight-circle or the jump ramp track he recently released had fun, neat LMap, and a structure. This... doesnt really have that.

[AleksiNir]

When I first saw the track I thought you'd gone crazy, but actually now that I've looked at it a bit more it looks great to me in its own, strange way. Driving on the track isn't as bad as you'd think from looking at it, either.

To comment your wall of text, often seeing your tracks makes me feel like a petty and boring trackmaker, because my (these days rare) creations are quite normal in style, and I know that I could never come up with something as creative as your tracks. But just like you said, I "make the tracks for myself", and I take pride in most of my creations, even if most of them are not-so-special circuits.

[Trigger Happy]

... tracks like that eight-circle or the jump ramp track he recently released had fun, neat LMap, and a structure. This... doesnt really have that.

Or you only cannot or don't want to see it.

I really cannot see much difference between needed mental effort and trackmaking skill for creation of Conesplosion and the Word. I wouldn't say certainly, that the yours is a remarkably above the second.

[GeneSuomi]

When I first saw this I didn't like it much and thought that it should be more like racing mat, but now I start to think that it is actually quite clever. I guess that those black edges mean that it is built on a platform so you can move when your mommy takes out the vacuum cleaner. I can see some leftovers on the floor and in the box. I just think that the ragmat should be a bit bigger to be more logical. Now I feel that it's only there to prove that we are on the floor.

[egamad]

I feel this track has caused a similar discussion that we had about my Mount Dhume and the sea/sky in the background. Some people just wouldn't see it the way I did, but in my eyes it was great and I was really happy with it. I couldn't agree with you more on the point, that you alone should feel satisfied with your work, but even trackmasters can improve by feedback (of course sucking the suggestions through a personal style filter). So I tried and came up with an alternative, that I was also (or even more) proud of. It was just a very transparent case of an author learning from the community by choice. I hope, that you can also profit from this situation like I did then.

I personally don't like the realisation of this idea, although the concept itself is unique. I don't get the intended feeling of room floor, I believe you should have used a different texture or place this whole thing on top of a (bigger) rug. It would also help if you would leave a gap between one edge of the screen and the play set. And the last thing that bothers me is that everything is parallel and tidy. I guess you don't have much contact with kids, do you? I know hmap like that is a pain when you don't do it on right angles, but I'm sure you could tilt the play set and get away with it somehow.. The rug would be far less problematic, so no excuse here.

The track itself is indeed just what it wants to be - a creation of children. It's sweet. Although I don't think there should be any water, and I would agree with BBA, that it would look more authentic with clean, non-dithered colours.

In general I have to say, that I'm glad that you (as one of my idols ) are keeping an open mind when releasing tracks over and over again.

[Martyn]

I feel this track has the potential to be a ToY contender, but it is missing something, something I cannot put my finger on, and without that something I feel it is only an average track

Are you sure you don't mean ToM contender?

Yeah I did, sorry for typo

[TuomoH]

Wouter, let me ask you this: are you really just focusing on the road itself? To me it seems so, you think the road looks bad so the whole track must be bad. If you forget about the road, is it bad otherwise? Just crappy lmap, badly placed objects? Isn't the hmap making it any bit challenging, when you're driving with the AI for instance?

This thread isn't about Word but since you keep bringing it up, let's talk it then too. Again, very crappily placed objects? Ok, maybe you think so, I on the other hand thought about the object placement carefully there - as with all of my tracks - and decided it was good. No challenge or anything? I take you didn't try racing with a full field of AI. As usual with small tracks like that the challenge is created by that way. In a small WS there isn't much you can do about the layout. Furthermore, it's also a piece of art, like it or not. Its very idea is to break outside the norms of GR trackmaking. When it comes to tracks winning ToM, it was 7th and to tell you the truth, I was also surprised about it. But that isn't high IMHO. In my eyes this is much better track than Mode, the eight-circle you're referring to, btw.

And btw, calling people's work crappy is disrespectful, even if they are 5 minute TE jobs, let alone tracks where one has put hours of work and thought into.

Aleksi, thanks a lot. And btw, I wasn't referring to you, or anyone in particular with my talk about people doing just one type of tracks. Just try different things, little by little you may discover something new.

GeneSuomi, thanks. I was thinking about the mat size but decided there needs to be room for the box etc. as well.

egamad, thank you very much. I also do learn from feedback and suck it through personal style filter. I just don't have a habit of making updates to my tracks, and based on people's criticism here it'd require making this from scratch. And you're right about not having much contact with kids. Thanks for your constructive criticism, much appreciated.

Keep the discussion and comments flowing.

[Von Mantov]

about the box I told you ...
I realized now that it have a pyramidal base ...so it'sright ...the tree covering the right edge...

[RudyOosterndijk]

After my first uninfluenced impression, I have now followed the discussion going on here. Unfortunately it won't be possible for me to play any GR before the end of next week. So the following words are based on your preview screenshot only. But as the visuals turn out to be the main point of criticism by some people here, I think it is legit to give a comment without having driven this last piece of work.

Explanations needed
For me the fact that there is so much explaining about the track - this is no playing mat, it's some kind of diorama etc. - speaks for itself. What do I mean? I refer to that particular part of PacmanOwnage's comment where he says that "you don't get what it's meant to be". Still, this can be a fun track to drive (which I can't evalute atm) that deserves a good rating.
My personal note: I know that PacmanOwnage's statement referred to the feeling when you are driving on this track. Not having done this, I can't really say if it feels like being a tiny car in some kind of diorama on the kitchen floor. But, theoretically, to be able to say if this feels the way it should, you must first of all visually recognize what this track simulates. And in a game like GR that is severely restricted in its visual ressources, it is even more important and huge part of skillful work that the real setting is transported to the game in a way that you recognize it by using the means accessible.

What I just said might sound quite harsh if you understood it as my point of criticism on this particular track. It was rather the theoretical background and served as my personal criteria for my evaluation.

My points of criticism - 2 dimensions
My main point is that (A) parts of it do not look like the real setting you had in mind - visually - and that (B) your idea is - artistically - not executed as well as I expected, based on your previous pieces of work and other tracks by different authors that comprize comparable settings.

A)
The floor absolutely looks like the tiles I have at home. The carpet is clear, too, maybe a little cartoonish but I can't see any better way to do this. So is the paper box with your Formula cars. Good.
Now the problem: Cut off this part of the setting and concentrate on the course itself. Having only that part to look at, I would never get the idea that this is a diorama. The question is: how to transport the significant look of a diorama - reality in tiny dimensions - to the game? I would say you can't. GR always looks like the small version of something.
Nonetheless, TuomoH tried to do this by intentionally making the part of the diorama look "damn ugly" (Wouter). Thereby I mean the wide median strips in the corner and the, at first view, "sloppy" use of textures (gravel, sand, grass, etc) with their scraggly borders (look at the area where the pit crews are).

Why do I use words like "sloppy" and "ugly" here although I have just said that this was an intentional way to bring the look of a diorama to GR?
Because for me, this does not look like a diorama. And without knowing it (and art needs to be clear without explanation), this part of the track just looks like the first real world track attempt by someone like me. And a person with this (actually wrong) impression would refer to it it as "ugly" and "sloppy".
But the other LMAP objects (carpet, box, tiles) do not make it more clear. On the contrary, they are easy to recognize and so the question mark hanging over the diorama part of the track grows even bigger.

B)
It's difficult for me to give any specific hint on how to improve the track or make it more obvious that this a diorama because I'm not as skilled in track-making as the highly-decorated author here. I can't really criticize you for that because - as I have just said - this is as close as you can get towards the look of a diorama but this, in the end, fails due to the specific look of GR and its visual restrictions. It rather looks like you cut a hole in the virtual kitchen floor and beneath, there is one of my GR tracks.

I have some suggestions only. Firstly, everything looks a little rectangular. You might turn the carpet a little to make the whole picture more organic and, therefore, more authentic. Everything is just to perfect in line (apart from inside the diorama of course).
Secondly, the diorama case is hard to spot. There is some black LMAP border to it but I don't understand why you didn't use some HMAP here instead. The little tablet or box at the bottom right with the mini cones and bushes for the diorama does have an HMAP case. And I think that's why some people thought there was a playing mat at the floor level and not a diorama case with physical walls around it.
Thirdly, the paper box with the Formula cars is a little out of perspective when you look at the stands in front e.g.

My verdict
All in all, I feel that for your eyes it might absolutely look like the setting you had in mind - because you know it and you can see the similarities between the real thing and the GR track. For any other person it might be a little bit more difficult and require quite some imagination.

I like the idea of those Micro Machines-like tracks converted into GR and especially your idea combining it with the small reality inside a diorama. I think a cartoonish playing mat that can be identified as such more easily would have been a very similar idea but the better choice. I'm looking forward to seeing more tracks like this from you, definitely.

[SammieVL]

Well the dithering actually looks good but because a few bad points it makes it look as crappy as the rest.

If you have a trackmaking skill, use it! Don't go saying that you made a track intended to look crappy. Maciej would never do something like that, so why would you? Because you want to make abstract tracks? Get out of the box that is out of the box, man!

You should rather make a track like this without a weird looking track in it. Like Rudy said - the idea is nice. But this isn't really your best track ever.

I once tried to do something like that, with hot-wheels track lying in an un-hmapped bedroom with a few boxes for raised HMap.
I'm sure that you can do better than this. Your previous work was alot better than this track, it was innovative, and nice too.

seriously, that was supposed to have a CASE around it? *laughs really hard*