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 [cir] Idyrt Beach 
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Joined: Thu May 21, 2020 1:32 pm
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Post [cir] Idyrt Beach
Hy guys, i'm new and i've never been on a generally forum before. I've been playing this fantastic game since 9/10 years but i've never searched an online community. I downloaded tracks and cars but i didn't know there is an active community. I'm so glad of that, finally :D :D
I always wonder why the aesthetics of my tracks is always lower than the tracks i found on web. I noticed that there are a lot of tools you use but i think the biggest problem is that i am very poor in using Hmap weight and height, or maybe the problems are others. I would be very happy if someone could help me explaining how can i improve the aestethic of the following circuit and or in general if anyone could give me any help to became better in editing tracks.
Anyway, i show one of my track: Idyrt.
I'll attach a screen of the track and i'll came it downloadble for the braves who would like to try it :D :D :D

P.s. Excuse me for bad english, i'm italian.

Now, two weeks are passed and i have improved the track! Yes, i know: it is not perfectly accurate. I'm still learning how to make tracks. Thanks to everyone gave me an hand with your supports and advices and will continue to give me an hand :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Attachments:
Idyirt Beach.rar [14.64 KiB]
Downloaded 20 times
File comment: That's is the track with the modification i've done during this period
idrydef.png
idrydef.png [ 127.12 KiB | Viewed 407 times ]
File comment: That's the old layoyt
Senza-titolo-1.png
Senza-titolo-1.png [ 123.2 KiB | Viewed 790 times ]


Last edited by Danador12 on Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Thu May 21, 2020 1:59 pm
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
Hello Danador12 and welcome to the community :wave:

A lot good trackmakers use external Hmap editor. (I haven't used it tho, so I can't help you with Hmap, but I'm pretty sure someone else can. :bg: )
But I can help you with Lmap. You can export your Lmap as a 512x512pixels .bmp picture file and you can edit it in MS Paint or any other program. And to help your Lmap look better, you can make much better looking and precise kerbing or make the tarmac look already used by using second tarmac color in the corners, where the track would be rubbered.

Your track (I guess you did it just by using track editor) is pretty decent looking already. :shy: I'm pretty sure you will improve your track making skills by using external programs and I can't wait for your next track release ! :haha:

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(last edit: 05/06/2020)


Thu May 21, 2020 3:40 pm
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
Hi FRUKI! Thanks for the welcome :mrgreen:
I predicted that the good trackmakers use external tools to perfectionate their product but
I'm a little bit confused, what's the difference between HMap and LMap? In what LMap consists exactly? About precise kerbing I have a doubt: Is just a work of patience to make the lines better or are there any tools to make the kerb adjacent to the tamac? Thank you for the advice about rubbered tamac! Can i have a good results just with classical track editor? That's because yes, I only use the classical track editor. Thank you for appreciation, even if the track isn't really stylistically perfect :meditate:
And obviously yes, i'll upload many of tracks in a time, i have ten years of lost community to recuperate :D :D :D :D

Merged double reply from Thu May 21, 2020 4:11 pm:

If anyone can advise external tools to perfectionate traks i'm very happy to know which, thanks


Thu May 21, 2020 4:09 pm
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
Danador12 wrote:
About precise kerbing I have a doubt: Is just a work of patience to make the lines better or are there any tools to make the kerb adjacent to the tamac? ... If anyone can advise external tools to perfectionate traks i'm very happy to know which, thanks
Yes, it is a lot of work, if you do it pixel by pixel, just like I did it with this track :D I can recommend you using snakeditor. (Once again, I used this program just to make perfect rounded walls/guardrails, so I can't really help you how to use this program.) But I'm pretty sure there is an option to make the kerbing perfect and do it "without any work".

Danador12 wrote:
I'm a little bit confused, what's the difference between HMap and LMap? In what LMap consists exactly?
Hmap is the height difference (water, mountains, hills, jumps, banked turns, etc.) and Lmap is what sort of terrain you drive on (tarmac, sand, grass, mud, white/red/yellow line [kerbing]) I hope you can understand it :mrgreen:

Danador12 wrote:
Can i have a good results just with classical track editor? That's because yes, I only use the classical track editor. Thank you for appreciation, even if the track isn't really stylistically perfect :meditate:
I'm pretty sure you can. :bg: I have seen a lot of only track editor tracks on this forum. :goodvibes:

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(last edit: 05/06/2020)


Thu May 21, 2020 4:42 pm
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
Yes FRUKI, Thanks you a LOT :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

In the next day i'll try all those advices, thank you again man! :up: :up:


Thu May 21, 2020 4:47 pm
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
Hello Danador12 ! :)

Like FRUKIScze said, it's a really decent track already, plus the fact it's only made with the Track Editor is quite something. :bg:

Personally I love to use Gimp for my tracks ; it allows lot of things if you know how to use it correctly. Using paths to make the layout and kerbs, put some textures for interesting effects, layers too if you want to keep intact what you've done so far and draw from behind, etc. It's better than Paint, maybe a little more complex, but very rewarding once you had the habit to use it.

For Hmap I use GRHMEdit : viewtopic.php?f=8&t=733.

It allows you to make very precise work on Hmap and to actually see what you're doing (In Track Editor, it's only when you play it than you see what you have done).

SnakeEditor is useful if you want smooth walls in a corner for example, but I always found it difficult to create a layout with it.

Sure, creating a track is not an easy task nor a short one, but it's rewarding. Plus, the skills you'll gain here may be useful later if you have to use some software like Gimp for example.

Feel free to ask anything, there's always someone who will answer to you even if this forum is pretty dead nowadays. We also appreciate to have some humble trackmakers like you coming, it's easier for us to help you, and your progresses will be faster. ;)

Keep going ! :bg:

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Sun May 24, 2020 7:46 am
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
Welcome Danador12! :wave:

Yes, it is possible to do very nice things in Track Editor (TE) only - that's what I've been using for my last two releases such as TEOring. The thing is that it takes lots and lots of trial and error and clicking "undo land" and "undo height". :meditate: The problem with that is that you can only have one undo for each so when you start making a new feature to your track, be sure to save a copy of the track.

Lots of people do pixel by pixel editing in MS Paint but like Kikwik, I'm a Gimp fan. It's indeed more complex than Paint but it's much easier for textures, fills etc. I also use Gimp for more precise hmap work such as sharp edges and gradients since those are impossible to do in TE. It's basically just playing around with shades of gray in a 64x64 pixel picture. But again, you can do lots of nice things in TE too but it takes lots of practice - I don't know how many thousands of hours I've spent in that program in my life. :D Just a word of advice if you decide to use Gimp - first export the land from TE so you get the right palette. TE is a bit picky with the image format.

You asked about placing the kerbs. For my part, I've done a great deal of them in TE (draw - undo - draw - undo, you know the drill). However, for many of my tracks I've retouched the kerbs in Gimp afterwards. I find it easier to do the pixel by pixel work on top of an existing base. My trick with the kerbs has been that where TE draws a pattern of white-red-white, I divide those in two so it becomes neater white-red-white-red-white-red.

Other than that, as the others have pointed out, Snakeditor is a pretty nice tool even though I share Kikwik's feeling about it not being that good for getting the layouts I want. I also second GRHMEdit being a nice tool for hmap editing. :)

As for the track, it's a nice first effort. Just keep practicing and you will get even nicer tracks. :)

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Mon May 25, 2020 3:53 am
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
Maybe I'll add some :2c:. I use Windows XP Paint (but on Win 10 - you can easily download it). For making hmap and placing objects I reccomend GRHMap and to make walls (if I cant make it smooth in GRHMap) Snakeditor. If you (and maybe other members, too) would like to see some tutorial/how to, I would think about it.. :scratch:

I was lucky to grow up between many incredible trackmakers they aren't active anymore (like my countryman Areen, his account even doesn't exist anymore, on Polish GR site (which also doesn't exist!) we had marvellous tutorial from him). However, through the years I learned some things, so why not to leave some heritage? :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

Also you can download my tracks and if it would help you, you can export lmap and see how it's made. If you'd want, feel free to do it :)

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Mon May 25, 2020 6:21 am
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
@YoNnie Areen is currently busy driving in our league, but if you come over to our discord server he might still teach you a thing ir two xd


Tue May 26, 2020 8:09 am
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
Thank you for all the reply guys, seriously.
Thank you for the advise about Gimp and GRMHEdit, i'll try them surely.
Tuomo, your results with only TE are incredible :goodvibes: I would like to make tracks like that at least.
Unfortunately, last days I had much less time than i thought to work on tracks, I've just tried some little things.
First, i've tried with the classical paint on PC (Not MS Paint, it is a big difference?), i've exported the Lmap from TE, worked on paint, and imported on TE again, but when I made this TE reminds me that the pic is not a bitmap 512x512 16bit, even if in the properties of the pic those are the standars!!! And i don't know why, it was so demotivating.
Then i downloaded snakeditor. I make some tests with it, but i found it very hard to understand for the moment, even with the online instructions, then i downloaded LandEditor but windows says that the COMDLOG32.ocx doesnt' exist on my PC (????).
I even tried importing the bitmap on Adobe Illustrator HAHHAHAHAH exporting the bitmap in the correct values, but once i put it on TE it gives me the same problem than before.

[quote="Kikwik"]
Sure, creating a track is not an easy task nor a short one, but it's rewarding.

Oh sure, I undervalued the work behind a single track :shock:
Thank you for the advices, i'll try all of them, very slowly. Again, i wrote this post before a series of looooooooooong weeks :doh: :doh:

YoNnie, for what that regards tutorial i would be very happy of course, but i hope is useful for an entire community, perhaps. It's so sad that the forum isn't much active nowadays, Generally is an incredible game, so understimated but it's one of the best ever made, absolutely genius, and so funny after all those years.

P.S. Thank you for appreciating the track, but i want to say that this is not my first, but it's the one i consider the best of mine ahahhahah
So the skill starting level it's lower than this attempt suggests ahahha
Thank you again guys, all of you <3

P.P.S. As usual, excuse me for languages error


Tue May 26, 2020 10:24 am
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
Danador12 wrote:
First, i've tried with the classical paint on PC (Not MS Paint, it is a big difference?), i've exported the Lmap from TE, worked on paint, and imported on TE again, but when I made this TE reminds me that the pic is not a bitmap 512x512 16bit, even if in the properties of the pic those are the standars!!! And i don't know why, it was so demotivating.

Yes, I mean classical Paint. But that's exactly the way TE is picky, sometimes it claims your pic is not of correct bitmap. I've understood it's due to the palette being wrong. I've attached a bmp including all the surfaces to this post. This should force Paint to use the correct palette. Try using that and import it in TE. You can also use those patches of color to choose surfaces in Paint/other graphics program. By the way, I have also extracted the palette from a file like this and saved it to my Gimp palettes, just in case.
Quote:
then i downloaded LandEditor but windows says that the COMDLOG32.ocx doesnt' exist on my PC (????).

You find the correct dll in this thread. If it still doesn't work, use these instructions to register the file.
Quote:
I even tried importing the bitmap on Adobe Illustrator HAHHAHAHAH exporting the bitmap in the correct values, but once i put it on TE it gives me the same problem than before.

Using the bmp in this post should work there as well.

Hope these help. :)


Attachments:
te.zip [1.13 KiB]
Downloaded 17 times

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Tue May 26, 2020 11:25 am
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
I worked on it a little bit guys, unfortunately i wasn't able to use the softwares you told me, so I still used classical TE and i think that i must use that at for a while :vsad: :vsad: . I think it's better than before but i don't know where i could improve more. Any other advices for the basic TE? :doh: :weep: :weep:


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Immagine.png
Immagine.png [ 171.61 KiB | Viewed 589 times ]
Sat May 30, 2020 6:13 pm
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
Guys, now i'm learning Gimp and i made some improvement of Idyrt! I've not finished yet, but i show you the difference between the old track and the "new" track.
Still working on it, any other advices? :goodvibes: :goodvibes:

Let me know! :D


Attachments:
File comment: This is the work in progress.
idrynew.png
idrynew.png [ 190.55 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
File comment: The old layout, i've also modified those orrible blocks in the distance.
idryold.png
idryold.png [ 132.28 KiB | Viewed 496 times ]
Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:19 pm
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
Mmh... First, I found it nice that you put the name of the track on it. It's not a common habit among trackmaker but I found it nice, like a signature or an entitled painting. I like also the fact that you made some lighter lines on tarmac on corners. It adds a nice contrast.

However, even if trees near stands provide some refreshing shadows to people watching the race, they block our view in the straight just behind. If an AI pushes me here, I don't know if I could be able to see where I am. Also, the booth in the corner just after the start is quite dangerous, hay bale or soft wall is always good.

Background is way better, with this main road and palm trees all along and without those buildings. I don't understand though why there's some yachts literally plunging into the water. And some patches of mud along the water seems... weird. Would be better without mud and only sand.

Sand is a little special in GR, among other surfaces, as it makes "dirty" all it touches. For example, if you put sand near tarmac, you'll have some little sand on the tarmac, even if you don't put it on the tarmac.

After, I don't know if you want to create a realistic track, or a psychedelic one, but your track is a good start for any of them.

Also, if you feel your track is good enough for you, stop and create another one if you want to. It's up to you, not us. The most important thing is if you feel satisfied of what you've done, even if some may criticize it, or if you feel some improvements are really necessary. You aren't even obliged to listen to me if you don't want to. Again, it's up to you. :)

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Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:16 pm
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
kikwik, i have to consider you like my tuor ahahaha
And it's very interesting the fact that while i was still working on the track i put some other modification that you noticed ahhaha
For istance, i deleted the mud on the side of road, the boat sinking in the lake (HAHAHAH first i considered it like a joke, i said that it's funny for me add some jokes in my track but yes, that's wasn't funny for me as I thought). Background it's nice to me, the main road is better than those blocks :bg:
Yes, i noticed the possibility with sand in fact somewhere there are a little sparks of it.
Let me know about booth because you'll notice in the image that i've modified that adding kerbs and sunk trie to make it a little bit safer. I wouldn't want to add bale or soft walls because i would left the possibilty to pay consequences to make an error in this part :D
But maybe it's exaggerated? I would like to know your opinion about.

Kikwik wrote:
After, I don't know if you want to create a realistic track, or a psychedelic one, but your track is a good start for any of them.


mmm... :meditate: i don't know. maybe for this one i'd prefer a realistic track

Kikwik wrote:
Also, if you feel your track is good enough for you, stop and create another one if you want to. It's up to you, not us. The most important thing is if you feel satisfied of what you've done, even if some may criticize it, or if you feel some improvements are really necessary. You aren't even obliged to listen to me if you don't want to. Again, it's up to you. :)

Thanks for that <3 It's very beautiful to know. but I would like contribute to community and know what the community think because i don't want that Generally dies, it doesn't deserve it :weep:
Yes, i think that it's quite finished. I don't where and what i could modify more (according to general precision of the tracks obv, i have to train about this) How can i decide that the track is fully finished?
I attach the ultimate jpg version.

P.S. i'm still not introduced to GRHMEdit. First i want to be familiar to GIMP :D

P.P.S. i believe i've done a lot of grammar error, sry


Attachments:
idrysupernew.png
idrysupernew.png [ 138.33 KiB | Viewed 443 times ]
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:06 pm
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
You're welcome ! :bsmile:

Ah, it's way better than before. Your layout seems cleaner this way. :bg:

It's ok to add some jokes in your track though, but it's better understandable for us with a little story behind or if it's more obvious (for example, Garbre's "Sunday Drivers"' track is a nice joke in itself with lot of cars made with objects "driving" crazy or crashed). For example, a sign with "yachts crash test" near the yachts or a special name to the track related to the joke may be better. In your case, we don't know if it's a mistake or intended and if it's intended we don't see why.

I'm sorry to insist on this but it's better to put an hay bale or a soft wall where drivers could hit hard something unwanted, like this booth. For example, I want to take this corner but an AI push me on this booth. Results, I have to make an entire lap being pretty damaged before entering the pits. It will ruin my race, and if I was a real professional driver, I would complain about this area being so dangerous (if I ever survived this crash :D ). The solution would be to reduce the length of your pit lane, as it's quite big (it will reduce the lenght of your booth line too, creating only a line, and not a "croissant"). Instead, you may put a pit limiter to reduce automatically the speed of drivers, and this way it will not take anymore lot of space, space that you can gain to put additional scenery.

AI line is really important too. Consider it before saying "I finished my track". Some track are really well done but are lacking in AI lines, which negates the initial fun. To make a good AI line, you have to be a good driver, that say driving lot of laps or kilometers on your track. Once you're satisfied with your best lap, leave GR, go into TE and import your AI line. It's better than making it in TE with the mouse. Also it's better to make your AI line with the car you want the community to use or the most appropriate to your track ; for instance, I think this track is more suited for formula (plus you're using it in your screenshot), so during your driving laps, you have to take formula. That way the AI will be competitive enough for most of us.

You may try GRHMEdit along with Gimp though, as it's quite easy to start with, and it will allow you to make precise hmap, more smooth and precise ones.

Quote:
How can i decide that the track is fully finished?

We can't tell you, as it's you who must decide this. ;) You know, a track is like a creation by an artist. It's for his own pleasure first, and if he wants to share it with others, fine ! That's why you don't have to wait too much from the community, as many have different ideas on your track, even contradictory ideas, and if you follow all of them, it will not be your track but the track of the others, and it will have no personality, no soul. You have to think if this advice or this one is good or not. It's good though that you're willing to listen to advices. Humility is what makes someone progress, even in real life. Apart from what I said, except minor details, that's all I can say on your track. You can continue to work on it or if it's enough for you, you can create a new one. The thing you have to know is that you can't create a perfect track on your first try. The more you'll do tracks, and the more time you'll take to polish them, the more you'll progress in trackmaking. For your very first track, is a pretty good start. Keep going ! :)

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Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:25 am
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
Thanks for your worlds Kikwik, thanks for the answer to the question about the end of the track and so, i estabilished that Idyrt isn't finished yet :D :D

Kikwik wrote:
I'm sorry to insist on this but it's better to put an hay bale or a soft wall where drivers could hit hard something unwanted, like this booth. For example, I want to take this corner but an AI push me on this booth. Results, I have to make an entire lap being pretty damaged before entering the pits. It will ruin my race, and if I was a real professional driver, I would complain about this area being so dangerous (if I ever survived this crash :D ). The solution would be to reduce the length of your pit lane, as it's quite big (it will reduce the lenght of your booth line too, creating only a line, and not a "croissant"). Instead, you may put a pit limiter to reduce automatically the speed of drivers, and this way it will not take anymore lot of space, space that you can gain to put additional scenery.


No problem man! :mrgreen: And well, the idea to remove the "croissant" (if i understood what do you refer to :D :D ) is good, i like it! Even the idea to reduce pitlane thanks to limiters I could try. I'll make a test about it!

Kikwik wrote:
To make a good AI line, you have to be a good driver, that say driving lot of laps or kilometers on your track. Once you're satisfied with your best lap, leave GR, go into TE and import your AI line.


What? :shock: I've never heard about that. So, if i understood. I drive on my track for a while, once i am satisfied of lap time i have only to import AI Line from the track? I'm not sure that i understood those are the passages to import AI line? Are there any kind of .exstension that i may consider? I just click on "Import AI Line", click on Idyrt and there will be an AI line inspired on my lap record? :shock:


Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:19 am
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
Quote:
No problem man! :mrgreen: And well, the idea to remove the "croissant" (if i understood what do you refer to :D :D ) is good, i like it! Even the idea to reduce pitlane thanks to limiters I could try. I'll make a test about it!


Yeah, you understood well. :D Nice, I'm waiting for this so ! :yummy:

Quote:
What? :shock: I've never heard about that. So, if i understood. I drive on my track for a while, once i am satisfied of lap time i have only to import AI Line from the track? I'm not sure that i understood those are the passages to import AI line? Are there any kind of .exstension that i may consider? I just click on "Import AI Line", click on Idyrt and there will be an AI line inspired on my lap record?


Exactly, it's as simple as this. When I began trackmaking, I wasn't aware of this at all and I'm sure lot of beginners don't know about it. But it's quite important to have good challenges with AI on your track. No extension is needed, or created. Like I said, when you're finished hotlapping, left GR, go to TE and import AI line. It will be the line of your best lap. AI will follow the better they can this line.

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Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:39 am
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
Kikwik wrote:
Exactly, it's as simple as this


Yes, can't believe it. :shock: It solves a lot of problem while AI line making! :greedy:

Now I've upload the last modified, and i could consider Idyrt finished. Maybe i want consider it ended just because i can't stand it anymore ahahahahahhaa :D but i want to share it. Should i make a new topic and upload it or it's better to share it in the comment of this post?


Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:04 pm
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
It's better in this topic, and particularly in your first post. That way, when people will click on your topic, they'll immediately have the new and final track instead of scrolling down until the end to search for the final one. It will be easier for you and for people around here.

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Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:57 pm
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
Kikwik wrote:
To make a good AI line, you have to be a good driver, that say driving lot of laps or kilometers on your track. Once you're satisfied with your best lap, leave GR, go into TE and import your AI line. It's better than making it in TE with the mouse. Also it's better to make your AI line with the car you want the community to use or the most appropriate to your track ; for instance, I think this track is more suited for formula (plus you're using it in your screenshot), so during your driving laps, you have to take formula. That way the AI will be competitive enough for most of us.

Kikwik has very good points otherwise but with this I have to disagree! :geek:

Yes, you should definitely use Import AI line but you shouldn't do it on basis of your very best lap after kilometers of driving. If you do this and really are a good driver, the AI starts hitting things inside of the corner since the AI tends to cut somewhat. Instead, drive your lap with Mini - no matter what track type you have. With that you can drive as slow as you want but make precise lines since importing the AI line it doesn't care about the speed. The key to a fast AI line is smooth movement but you usually need to fix your line anyway. This is the best method I've run into and I believe what most trackmasters have been using. :2c:

My tutorial will cover this as well (I'm now at 11 pages in Word...) :misch:

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My GR site .. Track Editor Tutorial for GeneRally


Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:47 am
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Beach
Thanks to have corrected me TuomoH. :shy:

I always thought about it being right. So I'm really eager to read from your tutorial as I may learn other useful things like this. :)

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Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:57 am
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Post Re: [cir] Idyrt Improvement Helps
TuomoH wrote:
Yes, you should definitely use Import AI line but you shouldn't do it on basis of your very best lap after kilometers of driving. If you do this and really are a good driver, the AI starts hitting things inside of the corner since the AI tends to cut somewhat. Instead, drive your lap with Mini - no matter what track type you have. With that you can drive as slow as you want but make precise lines since importing the AI line it doesn't care about the speed. The key to a fast AI line is smooth movement but you usually need to fix your line anyway. This is the best method I've run into and I believe what most trackmasters have been using. :2c: :


In fact I've noticed that. I had few problems because the Ai just seems to be crazy asf :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: pushing everywhere, launching each other into walls, into curves, very funny to see but not my objective. So i made safe laps with formula but i'll use Mini now. Thank you so much for that!

TuomoH wrote:
My tutorial will cover this as well (I'm now at 11 pages in Word...)

Fantastic! You are doing it! I can't wait for that :o :o :o


Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:19 am
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